[Diana]

Some with varying degrees of tolerance, June, on such sensitive subjects. This sort of thing will always raise pulses. I suppose its been knocking about as a debate for a couple of years now, specifically, on here, so most have worn/talked themselves out. We just win the medal for persistance..... or something.... ;-) ;-)

Di

 

[Ettinsmoor]

John not wanting to incur your wrath as we are definitely on the same side :wink: but have you come across this page on the Kennel Club Website? I don't know how long it has been there I just happened upon it recently:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/8288/DNA-Tests-Worldwide-2.pdf

 

[Dave79]

I seem to have missed the biggest part of the discussion, but a man's got to work sometimes.

I agree with Di that a tested dog coming back as a carrier will most probably mean the end of his stud carreer even more so when it consist of a relitavely unknown condition. I remember a young promising stud dog a few years ago that where ever you looked you saw a litter ad with him as sire. Then he came back as a carrier for CNM and I haven't seen an ad with him in it since. Nothing changed in the qualities of this dog, but CNM was an unknown condition at the time and he didn't 'survive' this test. Would he be an up and coming dog today it would be less of a problem.

Coming back to the list from John, I absolutely do not look forward towards more DNA tests coming up. Except the one for HC I would like to have. A lot of others will mean more of a pain than anything else.

 

[JohnW]

John not wanting to incur your wrath as we are definitely on the same side but have you come across this page on the Kennel Club Website? I don't know how long it has been there I just happened upon it recently:

You'd never incur my wrath Jill, but you can see how confusing it is when the KC change the rules but leave old pages on the web! On that page they state:-

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, prcd: OptiGen, Genetic Technologies Ltd, Laboklin

But on the Facebook canine health page, in reply to me on the 9th of May, and I quote, "Please also note that as the prcd-PRA DNA test for all breeds is subject to a patent, the Kennel Club will currently only record and publish results issued by Optigen." This was their exact words, posted at 14-11pm.

What chance do people have?

Regards, John

 

[Ettinsmoor]

That's exactly what I thought when I found it John.

There are also laboratories missing on other dna tests for example EIC is showing only one and it is not actually the initial lab that did all the research in Minnesota. What's that all about 8O 8O .

 

[Darkwaters]

See, that is the very difference between your country and Scandinavia: in here to be a carrier of something doesn't mean an end to a dog's stud career! It is just ONE, small issue to bear in mind, when planning matings, not the whole truth. Here some folks are happy to go the same path as Natasha has done: to use a PRA clear and CNM carrier to a PRA carrier and CNM clear. Not a big deal, because the main thing is to avoid producing affected dogs, not to be clear on everything between earth and moon!

I have used untested dogs to tested ones, because it really is enough for me to know I am not producing affecteds. Yes, of course it is always a nice bonus to have a stud dog clear on everything, but as that isn't nearly ever possible, one has to accept the reality. Everyone makes their own decisions and choices and continue their breeding work according their own morals. I for instance have witnessed several serious and life-threatening EIC-seizures, so for me it IS an issue indeed. I will test as long as I see this particular disease as a problem for me personally and also for the breed in general. But that is MY choice!

I am willing to go tha same route than Jill has gone: if I have a potential problem in my own line, I am willing to suggest a test for the stud owner. In fact I am intending to do so in one of my coming litters and I am pretty sure the stud owner will accept my offer. Her dog is very unlikely to be used by anyone else but me, she is not a breeder. Her dog is solely a competition dog, not acquired for breeding purposes. But I have asked her permission to use her male and she has accepted. I can't really ask her to pay for a test SHE personally have no use for, the test will only ever benefit ME. So I'll pay for it and that's it! Hopefully the dog is clear, as my bitch is a carrier.

I have also bumped into this testing thing as a breeder recently. A friend of mine living in another country has showed interest to one of my planned litters. But for her there is one problem: most of her bitches are carriers or affected, so to be able to keep up her work she REALLY needs to get a clear dog. In my combination the sire is clear by parentage, but the dam is a carrier. She asked my opinion about testing all the males before the puppies are ready to leave. Yes, it will make things slightly more complicated for me, as I have to test the whole bunch of them. But I will do it for her, because for me it doesn't matter whether the boys come back carriers or clears. She needs a clear and hopefully she can get one - if not, she won't be able to purchase a puppy from that litter. And I end up paying a couple of tests "in vain" - but so? In my catastrophic economical situation a couple of extra tests won't really make any real difference :lol: !

 

[Jazz]

I for instance have witnessed several serious and life-threatening EIC-seizures, so for me it IS an issue indeed

Thank you so much for testifying, and confirming the devastating consequences that EIC can actually have.

And thank you also for your sensible, realistic, and practical contribution to this debate

 

[Helen-S]

The following hard fact in plain numbers should raise some concern, too:

the total number of published EIC results in Finland (till May

5th) is 435 tested dogs, of which 144 carriers and 57 affecteds.

 

[abberwick]

looks like some people are breeding to tick the boxes instead of breeding healthy dogs who wont develop certain inherited diseases.
optigen virtualy finished the use of carriers at stud ,not in all cases but in most including some of the most widely used ftchs .
thankfully some people are using the carriers again and playing the longer game not the one fix job tick all the box matings .of course it is inevitable the present tick all the box mentality would occur evn though the vast majority of pups whether they are clear or carrier for certain things will never be bred from.
the more tests that become available will of course will exclude the use of many more carrier dogs however rare the conditions are ,it would be interesting to see the percentages for the different problem re the tests ie is pra more widespread than eic etc ?

 

[Ettinsmoor]

thankfully some people are using the carriers again and playing the longer game not the one fix job tick all the box matings .

Thanks for saying that Dave because I very nearly posted the same thing but knew I would get everyone jumping all over me saying that's not the case or who, which of course I would be unable to say on here.

I am certainly hearing that more and more working lab people are starting to use carriers again to get what they require in there dogs.

 

[JohnW]

435 tested dogs, of which 144 carriers and 57 affecteds.

Do you know Helen how many of the 57 affecteds are clinically affected, actually collapsing?

Regards, John

 

[abberwick]

I have an affected for pra clear of everything else on his bva certain low hip score elbows 00 clear for everything you can imagine .
Without doubt the best dog I have ever had winning numerous test awards including wins in open , I also have a couple of tick all the boxes dogs which I won't breed from because I don't think they have anything special to offer me as a breeder





The sad fact is I won't bred the affected as I fear it will be almost impossible to sell his offspring even though they won't be affected it's one thing and the same using carriers and afffecteds but it's not perceived that way sadly

 

[Helen-S]

Do you know Helen how many of the 57 affecteds are clinically affected, actually collapsing?

Regards, John

John, sorry, no idea! Probably most owners keep very low profile in the issue.