Does anyone know how many DNA tests there are at the moment for Labradors? That I know of the list includes:-

Present DNA tests for Labradors

Canine Degenerative Myelopathy
Centronuclear Myopathy
Cystinuria
EIC
Hyperuricosuria (Uric Acid)
MDR1 (Multidrug Resistance in Cancer)
NARC
PRCD_PRA
RD/OSD
Malignant Hyperthermia

Tests being developed

Atypical Collapse
A second form of dwarfism
2 types of Epilepsy
Canine Epitoidal Cramping syndrome
3 types of tumours
Hereditary Cataracts
A second form of GPRA
Hip Dysplacia

Regards, John

Thank you John, for the list and as I thought, there are a some tests on there which I didn't know of. Take MDR1 for instance, didn't know about that one and have no idea if that is a problem in any of the lines here so if a bitch owner with a MDR1 carrier bitch approached me and suggested to pay for this test, well, since this is a problem for this particular owner having a 'carrier' bitch then I wouldn't say no to this particular test. Sure, there could always be a chance of it coming back as a 'carrier' and as long as a certain 'stigma' is attached to this status then a top stud dog could risk income..... it's all about money, really isn't it?: potential lost stud fees, labs wanting us to use their tests because they're vital, KC not wanting to 'take a stand' because that may cause an 'upset', it goes on and on and on....

Lets try and spend a bit of money on educating people about the use of these DNA tests (people STILL don't quite understand how it all works) and explain to people that every single dog in this country is without doubt the carrier of something. Around 5 years ago, I bred my first 'carrier x clear' litter, last year I bred a PRA-carrier bitch to a clear dog but this stud dog is also CNM carrier where as my bitch is clear - are you with me? see how this can become a puzzle? None of the litters were tested and no puppies were sold at a reduced rate because they were 'worth less' as potential carriers. Some breeders are partly to blame for this themselves because they start of by offering 'carriers' at a reduced price probably because they see it from a breeders (or potential stud dog owners) point of view but the vast majority of labradors in this country are never bred from and many are even 'snipped' and spayed ASP so no 'accidents' can happen. The top stud dog owners are probably going to stay 'unharmed' in all this, hell many don't see it being a problem that they gladly let their top dog cover bitches with not one single heath check between them so I'm sure they'll find a way through all this. It's the non-top stud owners that are worried because the biggest 'sales point' for them is: health!!

'We' wanted DNA test, we got them and now we're worried about using them in case we're loosing stud fees? We went through all this 5 years ago with pra: we knew which lines 'had it/carried it' but because some were afraid of loosing money it was easier not to know officially and therefore not to test - that is some progress :wink:

I'm not here to make an overall judgement about what tests are more important than others - I think I know which DNA tests are relevant to my dogs but I know that others may have other DNA tests which are also important to them IF they should breed from their dog/dogs so of course I understand if they want to make sure that they're breeding a 'carrier' to 'clear' and that is why I'd say 'yes' if asked.

Ohhh, and looking at the list, I'd like to predict that I (and others here on LF plus some top stud dog owners) will be testing for the new type of PRA in a couple of years time - this type of PRA is being traced back to a very popular dog/line and there are many dogs in this country with this dog/lines.

Natasha

 

it's all about money, really isn't it?: potential lost stud fees, labs wanting us to use their tests because they're vital, KC not wanting to 'take a stand' because that may cause an 'upset', it goes on and on and on....

But there are plenty of easy targets and jolly jaunts to be found Natasha. In their press release issued last weekend the


The RSPCA and the BVA Animal Welfare Foundation (BVA AWF) are continuing to progress the concept of a puppy contract. The contract is in the early development stages, but the concept is that a seller of a dog should provide a ‘Puppy Information Pack’ (‘PIP’) which will provide the buyer with information about the puppy and its parents. The PIP would be tied into a simple contract that contains a warranty from the seller that the information in the PIP is true and complete.

The intention is for the contract/puppy information pack to have an educational as well as legal purpose. BVA Animal Welfare Foundation were discussing:-

"The RSPCA and BVA AWF believe that public education is crucial in terms of making the necessary improvements to pedigree dog welfare, and the contract/PIP should enable the public to make properly informed decisions when buying a puppy. It is intended that the puppy sales contract and PIP can be used for any type of sale - whether pedigree dog or not and by any seller."

Do they not know that responsible breeders have been giving Puppy Packs to puppy buyers for years!

I keep banging on about a plan for the way forward in testing because I feel it's so important. For as long as people can cherry pick what tests to do and what tests to ignore, with only a gut feeling for which are the bigger and smaller problems we will always be in trouble. I can understand June and EIC, because she is involved with collapsing dogs. For my part Epilepsy is bigger, but thats really only because I had an epileptic dog. The BVA is, or should be in a position to know the answers and the KC is in a position to find out. That would be a far better use of Harry Locke's time than all these rubbish press conferences he has held in the few months since he took over the BVA.

I've also been banging on about the DNA tests unacceptable to the KC. I've asked the question in another place and the response from the KC was:-

"The following link takes you to the KC Health pages http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2108. If anyone requires information on a specific DNA test or laboratory please email info@thekennelclub.org.uk as not all DNA tests and labs are currently recorded. Please also note that as the prcd-PRA DNA test for all breeds is subject to a patent, the Kennel Club will currently only record and publish results issued by Optigen."

I answered them:-

"Thank you for replying KC, can I ask, is there a list of Laboratories who you accept for publication on the health database. I realise that this is a sensitive issue, but having been told by a person that although the KC would file their dog’s results with their pedigree details, the results would not be listed on the online health database. This is something I’m very worried about because as it removes the results from public view and with many people breeding clear to clear in order to preserve their “Clear by parentage” I can foresee dogs being overlooked when it comes to researching for stud dogs, which could result in an even bigger bottleneck in the gene pool.

Yes I understand the legal implications of “Restriction of trade”, and the problems of “Infringement of patent” but it does not alter the fact that the breeders are piggy in the middle. DNA testing is not cheap, particularly when there are as many tests as in Labradors. My guess is that there is no answer you can give, but it’s so frustrating!!"

Sadly I received no answer to that last post.

Regards, John

 

Thanks Tracey and Natasha, all opinions welcomed! Your views have much interest for me as current stud dog owners. I too have bred a CNM carrier bitch, an Optigen carrier dog, and had two litters with carrier dogs in the last 7 years, but I have to say, now, I wouldn't use a PRA carrier if I planned to keep a puppy myself. Not having got everything, through a couple of generations, Clear for PRA. But it certainly was, a bit like Jill has done for EIC, a route I travelled in the past to get to an end goal.

And June... yes, you know its true, its one we will never agree on, but its nice we can always debate it passionately and honestly, but without malice. Thank you for that.

Natasha, one comment, I'm not sure having a COMPETITION stud dog is *all* about money (I agree it would be standing a pet dog at stud). I'm so far from nieve so that I promise thats not a deliberately stupid comment. Of course some of *it* is. But only money gained in an ethical manner in the owners own mind (of course there are many 'merchants' but I'm not speaking about them, they probably wouldn't know CNM from the BBC!!!)

There is a lot more in having a dog people desire to use at stud in it too especially if homebred. Or at least, there always has been for me.
Di

 

And June... yes, you know its true, its one we will never agree on, but its nice we can always debate it passionately and honestly, but without malice. Thank you for that.

Some definitions of the word "forum" - -

"for the discussion of questions of public interest"
"medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas"
"an opportunity for open discussion"

I reckon that just about what we all try achieve on here Di :wink:

 

Some with varying degrees of tolerance, June, on such sensitive subjects. This sort of thing will always raise pulses. I suppose its been knocking about as a debate for a couple of years now, specifically, on here, so most have worn/talked themselves out. We just win the medal for persistance..... or something.... ;-) ;-)

Di

 

John not wanting to incur your wrath as we are definitely on the same side :wink: but have you come across this page on the Kennel Club Website? I don't know how long it has been there I just happened upon it recently:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/8288/DNA-Tests-Worldwide-2.pdf

 

I seem to have missed the biggest part of the discussion, but a man's got to work sometimes.

I agree with Di that a tested dog coming back as a carrier will most probably mean the end of his stud carreer even more so when it consist of a relitavely unknown condition. I remember a young promising stud dog a few years ago that where ever you looked you saw a litter ad with him as sire. Then he came back as a carrier for CNM and I haven't seen an ad with him in it since. Nothing changed in the qualities of this dog, but CNM was an unknown condition at the time and he didn't 'survive' this test. Would he be an up and coming dog today it would be less of a problem.

Coming back to the list from John, I absolutely do not look forward towards more DNA tests coming up. Except the one for HC I would like to have. A lot of others will mean more of a pain than anything else.

 

John not wanting to incur your wrath as we are definitely on the same side but have you come across this page on the Kennel Club Website? I don't know how long it has been there I just happened upon it recently:

You'd never incur my wrath Jill, but you can see how confusing it is when the KC change the rules but leave old pages on the web! On that page they state:-

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, prcd: OptiGen, Genetic Technologies Ltd, Laboklin

But on the Facebook canine health page, in reply to me on the 9th of May, and I quote, "Please also note that as the prcd-PRA DNA test for all breeds is subject to a patent, the Kennel Club will currently only record and publish results issued by Optigen." This was their exact words, posted at 14-11pm.

What chance do people have?

Regards, John

 

That's exactly what I thought when I found it John.

There are also laboratories missing on other dna tests for example EIC is showing only one and it is not actually the initial lab that did all the research in Minnesota. What's that all about 8O 8O .

 

See, that is the very difference between your country and Scandinavia: in here to be a carrier of something doesn't mean an end to a dog's stud career! It is just ONE, small issue to bear in mind, when planning matings, not the whole truth. Here some folks are happy to go the same path as Natasha has done: to use a PRA clear and CNM carrier to a PRA carrier and CNM clear. Not a big deal, because the main thing is to avoid producing affected dogs, not to be clear on everything between earth and moon!

I have used untested dogs to tested ones, because it really is enough for me to know I am not producing affecteds. Yes, of course it is always a nice bonus to have a stud dog clear on everything, but as that isn't nearly ever possible, one has to accept the reality. Everyone makes their own decisions and choices and continue their breeding work according their own morals. I for instance have witnessed several serious and life-threatening EIC-seizures, so for me it IS an issue indeed. I will test as long as I see this particular disease as a problem for me personally and also for the breed in general. But that is MY choice!

I am willing to go tha same route than Jill has gone: if I have a potential problem in my own line, I am willing to suggest a test for the stud owner. In fact I am intending to do so in one of my coming litters and I am pretty sure the stud owner will accept my offer. Her dog is very unlikely to be used by anyone else but me, she is not a breeder. Her dog is solely a competition dog, not acquired for breeding purposes. But I have asked her permission to use her male and she has accepted. I can't really ask her to pay for a test SHE personally have no use for, the test will only ever benefit ME. So I'll pay for it and that's it! Hopefully the dog is clear, as my bitch is a carrier.

I have also bumped into this testing thing as a breeder recently. A friend of mine living in another country has showed interest to one of my planned litters. But for her there is one problem: most of her bitches are carriers or affected, so to be able to keep up her work she REALLY needs to get a clear dog. In my combination the sire is clear by parentage, but the dam is a carrier. She asked my opinion about testing all the males before the puppies are ready to leave. Yes, it will make things slightly more complicated for me, as I have to test the whole bunch of them. But I will do it for her, because for me it doesn't matter whether the boys come back carriers or clears. She needs a clear and hopefully she can get one - if not, she won't be able to purchase a puppy from that litter. And I end up paying a couple of tests "in vain" - but so? In my catastrophic economical situation a couple of extra tests won't really make any real difference :lol: !

 

I for instance have witnessed several serious and life-threatening EIC-seizures, so for me it IS an issue indeed

Thank you so much for testifying, and confirming the devastating consequences that EIC can actually have.

And thank you also for your sensible, realistic, and practical contribution to this debate

 

The following hard fact in plain numbers should raise some concern, too:

the total number of published EIC results in Finland (till May

5th) is 435 tested dogs, of which 144 carriers and 57 affecteds.

 

looks like some people are breeding to tick the boxes instead of breeding healthy dogs who wont develop certain inherited diseases.
optigen virtualy finished the use of carriers at stud ,not in all cases but in most including some of the most widely used ftchs .
thankfully some people are using the carriers again and playing the longer game not the one fix job tick all the box matings .of course it is inevitable the present tick all the box mentality would occur evn though the vast majority of pups whether they are clear or carrier for certain things will never be bred from.
the more tests that become available will of course will exclude the use of many more carrier dogs however rare the conditions are ,it would be interesting to see the percentages for the different problem re the tests ie is pra more widespread than eic etc ?

 

thankfully some people are using the carriers again and playing the longer game not the one fix job tick all the box matings .

Thanks for saying that Dave because I very nearly posted the same thing but knew I would get everyone jumping all over me saying that's not the case or who, which of course I would be unable to say on here.

I am certainly hearing that more and more working lab people are starting to use carriers again to get what they require in there dogs.

 

435 tested dogs, of which 144 carriers and 57 affecteds.

Do you know Helen how many of the 57 affecteds are clinically affected, actually collapsing?

Regards, John

 

I have an affected for pra clear of everything else on his bva certain low hip score elbows 00 clear for everything you can imagine .
Without doubt the best dog I have ever had winning numerous test awards including wins in open , I also have a couple of tick all the boxes dogs which I won't breed from because I don't think they have anything special to offer me as a breeder





The sad fact is I won't bred the affected as I fear it will be almost impossible to sell his offspring even though they won't be affected it's one thing and the same using carriers and afffecteds but it's not perceived that way sadly

 

Do you know Helen how many of the 57 affecteds are clinically affected, actually collapsing?

Regards, John

John, sorry, no idea! Probably most owners keep very low profile in the issue.