This is all very worrying for you. I wonder how Wylie himself feels. Obviously he wont reason it out, but it must be very distressing for him to be so fearful and anxious.

I hope removing it will mean he can return to his normal self very quickly. Our family dog when I was a child, a yellow male lab, was a roamer when he escaped. He was also not trained. It is probably the main reason I want bitches. I remember the hours spent out looking for this dog when he'd got out. he was the most lovable rogue, though.

((((Hugs)))).

 

Helen I think you are aware I have big issues with the use of this implant and I voiced my concerns when you first posted on the forum and by pm.

I am really sorry that this has happened to Wylye and hope he returns to his happy self once the damn thing is removed.

Edited to add from my experience both the injection and the implant have side effects that do not manifest themselves when the dog is actually castrated.

 

Oh how awful, poor Wylye I have no idea how these chemical castrations work, but from my own perspective as a human messing around with hormones can indeed have a negative effect on anxiety (on the other hand it *can* have a positive effect, but each case is individual).

I do remember my trainer saying that in certain dogs that are aggressive due to nervousness or anxiety, neutering can have a negative effect because it actually makes them feel more vulnerable (can't remember exactly how she said that worked). So with a fear aggressive dog she will work through the behaviour first before they are neutered (and she is an advocate of neutering so she doesn't say *don't* lightly).

 

Oh Helen, I'm really sorry to hear all this. Poor Wylye and poor you, you must be terribly worried!

I can't offer any advice but I really hope once the implant is removed, Wylye will return to his normal self.

 

Removed, as the last thing I wanted to do was cause Helen anymore upset.

 

Thank heavens you *only* had the implant though at this stage.

I know some slightly nervous dogs do go on to develop full blown fear agression after castration as the removal of testosterone lowers the confidence further of an already low confidence dog.
It sounds like asides the chemical side effects the loss of testosterone might have played a part in the behavioural side and that should recover once his testosterone levels rise again.

Such a shame when you saw such a positive effect of the roaming. I wonder if it might have been enough to break the habit or perhaps see you past his key adolescent phase?
I suppose proper castration could still be an option in the future, when he's older and well, bolder, as obviously there are no chemicals then- only the benefit of no testosterone for roaming.

As an aside have you thought about using some of your electric fencing at height around your garden for roaming? I'm guessing that would be something Wylye already understands not to go near from your pheasant pens?

 

Thank you so much for posting this, Helen. Firstly, let me say that I'm hugely sorry about the experience you've had and just so much hope that he's going to 'revert' back to normal after the chemicals have worn off.

Your experience is truly worrying and thank God, that you're very competent handler/owner that knows how to tackle such problems. Jill, I'm not familiar with using chemical castration (and don't think I'll ever go down that route) nor have I had to castrate (old fashioned way) any dog of mine but are these side-effects to the chemicals and would not happen if the 'proper snip' was done? just thinking out loud here :lol: - what if you 'snip' one happy dog (i.e it knows it's 'place'/ranking when meeting other dogs) will it not then have to - should we say - 'start over' as in having to find out where it stands when it comes to other dogs? I'm thinking about fully mature or older dogs rather than young dogs having the 'snip' early.

I just get slightly worried when we start interfering with hormones either one way or the other. I'm speaking very broadly here as I'm sure many, many dogs are fine when having it done. On the other hand, I still get the impression that some people - and vets - are still very quick at using castration as a "this will solve all your problems" type of thing rather than look very closely at every individual dog (and their owners). No relation to Helen at all but just overall thoughts and Helen's post really made me think about it..

Any thoughts?

Natasha

 

It is just my opinion Natasha but yes that is exactly what I am saying the change in behaviour etc. is down to the chemical part, not the castration part if that makes sense.

This is my experience from working at Hearing Dogs, and also taking Pet Training Classes in the past. Not with my own dogs although I have two castrated dogs here one castrated at 2 years old and one castrated at 6 years old. No problems or issues with either of them just makes for a more laid back life for them when being around in season bitches.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I'm sorry to hear the implant has had such an adverse effect on poor Wylye, fingers crossed that once it's removed he'll settle down again.

My vet had mentioned chemical castration to me when I took Will for his vaccinations - as all but one of my five bitches were entire at that time. I decided against it, instead getting 2 more of my girsl spayed and making arrangements for the other 2 to go 'on their holidays' when in season. After hearing about your experience I'm relieved I made that decision.

 

How strange Helen that I only thought of you and Wylye and this last night when mulling Theo over in my head and was going to ask today how you were getting on.

Sorry to hear that this has given rise to new issues with Wylye. Your description of the slim happy boy, with the sometimes issue with other entire male dogs and the tendancy to roam with temptation could have been describing Theo. I'm glad you posted your concerns and I have definatley ruled this out as an option following this.

I really hope things get better for Wylye and that the removal of the implant and the sessions with the behaviourist will help and that Wylye can sort out some of his issues and go back to being the happy dog he was.

 

oh Helen - what a nightmare for Wylye and for you. Hope removing the implant has a positive impact - & quickly, plus the behaviourist gives you some coping strategies in the interim.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I have an intact male here and am currently resisting doing anything - as my boy is happy and well adjusted with no issues (long may it last). So all experiences are being taken in & noted.

 

Thanks so VERY much everyone for your support :flower: and I'm glad now to have posted what I did. When I researched this implant, I knew no one who had personally tried it and so had to rely on the internet. All that I read was positive, and so I felt it was important to write down my worrying experiences for others. Had I read what I have just written as an outsider then there would've been every chance that I would never had this implant done .

Natasha you raise a very interesting question, and I too would be interested to hear others thoughts.

So, clearly I am not going to consider surgically neutering him for the time being, if ever. The plan is to watch how he is over time when the effects of the implant wear off, and combine this with professional help from the Behaviourist. Obviously that creates the return of the 'old' problem of roaming after bitches. Unfortunately, and you'd have to see where we live to understand, I cannot put 6' high fences to keep him in, which is the sort of height I'd need as he is one hell of a jumper BUT we can create and build a run for him, which is what we are now going to do. So it is no more roaming free in the garden for him however he will be able to go out there in the run. I doubt Sarah this stint with the implant will have broken the habit once he has (hopefully) returned to normal but then I suppose you never know. That said I don't think I want to risk it :wink:


Made me sad to look back at this post of mine from 2nd July:

Just a little update and for reference for anyone thinking of doing this. Wylye had his chemical castration (superlorin) injection today........ The idea is now to see if it, in 6 weeks time, decreases his wonderlust. I know of two bitches close by that are due in Season in about 2/3 months time, so that will be a good test! Inaddition, I'd like to see if there are any character changes, I know, I know, it's not the same as a proper castration but providing he stays the same, happy little boy with a huge love of retrieving, then I'll most likely get him done before the 6 months is up.

 

" One thing I will say, which was said to me a long while ago, is that sometimes mixing show lines with field lines doesn't always bring out the best in the offspring. "


That has not been my own firsthand experience of doing so in any way shape or form, and so many people, often inadvertantly by way of pet to pet matings, that I find it hard to read such a statement and feel this is not the issue here judging by siblings and many closely related dogs.

A dreadfully misleading old wives tale Jules, and what a very sad thing to read in a breed so split already. Reminds me of 'don't mate yellow to chocolate' because they will have two heads and no tail.

Di

 

what an awful thing to happen to poor Wylye and I hope the removal of the implant has a positive reversal effect.

Mym mum's old poor was neutered at around 12months (he's now 13) and I often wonder if this was a major cause of his nervous aggression - to people and dogs. We will never know. However, I hope you have a second chance with Wylye with it not being 'permanent'.

Best of luck and keep us updated

 

Would just like to make the point that this is not a 'temprement' thing. Those who know Wylye from old; Becs and Ange even, will confirm that the dog I am describing is VERY different to the dog they know from their past interactions with him. I would hate this thread, although I'm sure it won't happen, to go down the temprement/breeding train of thought as that IS a red herring, believe me :wink:

 

Really sorry to read this Poor Wylye and poor you

Would just like to make the point that this is not a 'temprement' thing. Those who know Wylye from old; Becs and Ange even, will confirm that the dog I am describing is VERY different to the dog they know from their past interactions with him.

Absolutely! Haven't seen him for a while but have met him various times and he's always been the sweetest of dogs. In fact I asked to meet up with Helen and her dogs at one point as I wanted to give Minnie a really positive experience around other dogs with dogs I could trust.

I really do hope Wylye is back to his former self (minus certain urges!) soon :flower:

 

One thing I will say, which was said to me a long while ago, is that sometimes mixing show lines with field lines doesn't always bring out the best in the offspring.

Oh Jules, I don't know who said that but you should have told them they were talking out of there bahookies!!! :lol: :lol:

 

Sorry to hear that Helen, I will go and speak to a home where I placed a dog who were going down that same route...will report my findings. I really hope once the chemicals have left his system you will start to see the old Wyle. Im sure his behaviour problems will soon be sorted, after seeing my neighbours dog cured completely of terrible fear and agression which came out of the blue, after 2 sessions with a guy 8O .

Thinking of you and Wyle

 

Ive just read the post quickly, however one thing did strike me, when they have the implant, I take it, that the hormones in the implant suppress the testosterone, so sort of chemical v's chemical reaction. (Have I got that right?) Was there any chance that he was either reacting to the chemicals in the implant in an allergic type of way after all they must be synthetic? I know that some people react very differently to say a contraceptive implant to the after effects of a hysterectomy for example (yes I know people work differently lol, but just as an example).

Has your vet given you any indication as to the 'withdrawal' process of having these implants removed? After all his body is going to recieve a massive surge of testosterone isnt it?

 

Removed for the same reasons as before.

 

Helen, a quick 'google' (which is by no means foolproof I know) brought up this information:

The active substance of Suprelorin 4.7 mg implant for dogs is deslorelin (as deslorelin acetate). Deslorelin acts by suppressing the function of the pituitary-gonadal axis when applied in a low, continuous dose. This suppression results in the failure of treated animals to synthesise and/or release follicle stimulating hormone and luteinising hormone, which are responsible for the maintenance of fertility.

Which led me to see what effects are known when you suppress the function of the pituitary-gonadal axis:

Disturbances of the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis are a frequent cause of sexual dysfunction and have also been associated with depression in males (Schweiger et al., 1999).

That last quote just came up with the search for 'pituitary-gonadal axis' and relates to alcoholism in humans, but if you look through the articles, there seems to be a definite link between depression and suppressing the function of this *bit* of the body. I'd dig a bit more but I've had my tea break, back to the grindstone I'm afraid......

 

...but if you look through the articles, there seems to be a definite link between depression and suppressing the function of this *bit* of the body. I'd dig a bit more but I've had my tea break, back to the grindstone I'm afraid......

Ask any man and I think you'll find that they get depressed just thinking about castration (chemical or not) let alone any effects of having it done :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: and dare I add that males often seem to have an increased level of fear of strangers especially people in white. A heighten level of aggression towards people with knives can also be observed :lol: :lol: It all makes perfectly sense now and must be linked to all male creatures on this planet.

Sorry, Helen, just couldn't resist :lol: :lol: :lol:

Natasha

 

In addition to Jo's info he's some info on 'reversal' or rather return of testosterone....

With respect to testosterone levels (an established surrogate marker of fertility), during clinical trials more than 80 % of dogs administered one or more implants, returned to normal plasma testosterone levels (≥0.4 ng/ml) within 12 months of implantation. Ninety-eight percent of dogs returned to normalplasma testosterone levels within 18 months of implantation. However, data demonstrating the complete reversibility of clinical effects (reduced testicular size, reduced ejaculation volume, reduced sperm count and reduced libido) including fertility after six months, or repeated implantation, are limited.
During clinical trials, most of the smaller size dogs (<10 kg) maintained suppressed levels of testosterone for more than 12 months following implantation. For very large dogs (>40 kg), data are limited but duration of testosterone suppression was comparable to that seen in medium and large dogs. The use of the product in dogs of less than 10 kg or more than 40 kg bodyweight, therefore, should be subject to a risk/benefit assessment performed by the veterinarian.

from http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Suprelorin_4_7_mg_implant_for_dogs/-48969.html

There's not much mentioned under adverse reactions but as your vet was so quick to acknowledge the issue perhaps he will report it (there's a special form they submit for prescription based meds)

 

Thank you Joanne that is HUGELY interesting and will go and investigate further now. And thank you also Sarah for the info above - am slightly concerned about the time frames.... and a HUGE thank you to you Natasha for giving me the only giggle I've had today :wink:

I am now hugely stressed and distressed that anyone on here or reading this *may* think my dogs' behaviour is anything other than what I have written about ie. a reaction to an implant. I take your points above Jules and with the greatest respect, but I don't want them on this thread if at all possible as it is just NOT applicable in this case. But I also don't want you to think I am upset with you for raising them etc :wink: I just don't want any further discussion on this thread about it if possible, another thread fine - :flower:

Wylye IS a lovely, lovely boy. He is, as many of you here will understand being fellow dog lovers, pretty much the centre of my universe and it is HORRIBLE to see things go so badly wrong. It is NO fault of his but sadly all mine and the decisions I have made along the way. I very much hope in time I can rectify it all and once again I will have my happy, shiney and confident boy back. God help me if I can't as I will then have to live with the choices I made, and that is very very sad for me and him especially, and not forgetting the person who bred him and did so with such love and care.....

 

Helen - we all make decisions for the best of reasons with the information we have available at the time - beating yourself up, for what appeared to be a wise choice at the time you made it, will not help (though we are all partial to it). Onwards & upwards to Wylye finding his feet again.

Let me give another example - I had Zadie's cataract operated on which lead to a 3 month recovery period that was grim for Zoods, followed a few months later by her getting posterior capsule opacification (basically the eye looks completely cloudy again). From what I've read subsequently, her cataract may never have progressed. So should we have had the op done - who knows? But we did and regret won't change anything - and maybe it was the right decision anyway.

Really hope removal of the implant has a speedy impact and you get you confident, happy boy back asap