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Sonia said:
Diana said:
Presumably to humans he is quiet, calm, controlled and sociable with a faultless temperament?
Do these exist Di? :wink:
I'd love to know that. :lol: Charlie is a lovely dog, good with other dogs if he can be allowed off lead, good with children, but doesn't always like adults and can get defensive.

Helen.
 
Sonia said:
Diana said:
Presumably to humans he is quiet, calm, controlled and sociable with a faultless temperament?
Do these exist Di? :wink:
....No no they don't, not entirely, and I see the wink and smile at it ;-)

I was really trying to find out if the dog is 100% reliable and sociable with humans. Maybe there is a click to when this started through one certain event - or maybe its a whole chain of them. maybe the dog is genetically predispositioned to end up a nasty piece of work or maybe he has a nervous streak which has only come out through a certain thing happening.

I DO feel bad trying to disagnoise through the net, I KNOW its not ideal and I KNOW I don't have a chain of letters after my name, but I feel aggression in our breed is so worrying, upsetting and potentially dangerous (after all Labs are strong dogs when they want to be)if they chap is finding it hard to find a trainer we must throw some ideas up until he can get on the ground help...

You know... (trails off to check the Chicken and pesto....)

Di
 
Aggressive Behavior

My 15 month old choc lab has also started this in the past few months as well - hence my registering on this site for some advice!

As a puppy growing up he was an extremely friendly dog and would enthusiastically approach all other dogs to play and only on a few occasions got a semi-aggressive response. However on one occasion about 3 months ago he approached a pack of 3 dogs and was attacked by the alpha dog and chased until he was safely shivering behind me.

But there wasn't an immediate change in his behavior, its seems to have been more gradually, so I'm not convinced thats the reason.

He still plays and socialises with a good number of dogs he knows and especially bitch's, with no problems at all, his 'targets' are 90% male and new to him, though he does have an apparent ongoing dislike of staffs & beagles too..

The behavior does happen when he is on the lead and sees another dog, pulling, barking and hackles raised, but more worryingly when he is off the lead. This is when he zones out of anything other than rapidly approaching the dog in a fully aggressive stance and only my intervention stops a full on attack, even if the other dog has taken playfulll or submissive stance. Eye contact is unflinching and he gets a sudden apparent deafness to any other noise.

This behavior seems to have kicked in the same time as what would be his teenage adolescent age and does seem aimed towards other males. Is it a dominance/alpha male/pack thing?

In fact he has recently had his first encounter with a bitch which had recently finished her first heat, and again there was this total zoning out total focus on his target, this time not aggressive but with its own problems never the less!

I'm becoming under increasing pressure from my wife to get him to the vets for castration and am running out of justification to save his assets :oops: but would this be much of a solution?

I'm going to try more training but due to his current behavior would one-to-one be more successful than as part of the group, even though he may need to socialise with more dogs to get him over this?

Or is it something to do with chocolate labs? Since getting him we've heard a more than a few times that chocolates are a bit 'mad'..

Any help/advice greatly appreciated, sorry for the long post and hello by the way!

Sean
 
Sean,

Firstly it is absolutely not a chocolate thing. Theer are as many calm, sociable. biddable chocolates as any other colour in the MAIN, HOWEVER, that said, as an aside to your problem, as I have detailed before, the chocolate gene pool is riddled sadly with poor quality pet dog matings for no good reason AND puppy farm dogs breeding only for the colour chocolate as they believe they can get 'more money' for them because they are 'rarer' than black or yellow labradors. hence many poor quality chocolates being out there.

However that doesn't mean that their behaviour would be any worse if raised correctly from a young age, taken to classes etc etc. I do find that one tends to remember the poor chocolates one sees for any reason, temperament, piercing horrible yellow eyes, ugly as mud and so on, yet the same in the other colours tends not to turn heads because they are so common (as such) grin.

But yes to an extend the chocolate gene pool doesn't have the consistant quality the other two do because of those chashing in on the colour but this should not affect temperament and trainability, persay, so the 'chocolates are mad'; thing IS an old wives tale made up by owners who can't be bothered to train their dogs properly, whatever colour they might be.

More to follow.
Di
 
Castration will help IF and only IF this is a sexual problem. That said there is not a single negative side to castrating a dog so doing so would absolutely do no harm and *could* only do good.

Di

Edited to add long piece written about castration just a few weeks ago. Just for your info....

Castration. A complex subject and certainly there are many views on it. I will give my own as a breeder and exhibitor but also a pet owner (technically!)

I advise all my puppy buyers to have their bitches spayed and their dogs castrated. Currently most vets only castrate, a vasectomy is possible but is far more specialist and expensive. Also one of the main reasons for castrating is to help prevent testicular cancer and of course, if the balls are left and sacks, this does nothing to help this.

I feel one major reason for castration is that there are so FEW BITCH OWNERS who really understand about seasons. Not knowcking anyone on here but just look at the zillion posts on seasons, unwanted matings, when bitches can and can't be walked and so on.... there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings about the topic. Many don't give a fig, and many just don't understand and walk their bitches in season in public places.

This is like a red rag to a bull to an entire male and RIGHTLY SO. He is doing what natures intends. Few dogs will have the savvy to actually mismate an inseason bitch in the time it takes to charge up and get 'jiggy' before the owners come flapping and panting along, BUT one dose of in season bitch can pull down many walls of training. Boys then start to look at bitches differently, sex is suddenly brought to their attention in a blinding rush and they can become a damn pain around bitches, castrated dogs (who basically don't smell like entire males and don't smell like out of season bitches so therefore many entire dogs consider them inseason bitches) and sometimes even start to throw their weight around amongst entire dogs if a bitch is about.

All from some daft bitch owner who didn't care or didn't understand her bitch was in season.

Its good that you realise that ONLY sexual behaviours will be curbed by castration. sadly vets and some trainers give it out as a quick fix to every bad behaviour. Whilst I can completely understand that doing so will do that dog no harm and will prevent cancers, absolutely prevent just one unwanted pregnancy and could help IF the bad behaviour does happen to have a sexual route, its important people realise that it will not cure bad behaviour or headstrongness or mounting for any reason that isn't directly sex related, or pulling on the lead, or growling at other males, or humping cushions or any such things!

My view being that castration can do no harm to a dog whatsoever. Its a minor op with only a very small handful not shrugging it off in a couple of days, costs a lot less than a full bitch spay and can have health benefits.

It won't be a magic quickfix to established behavioural problems. It will, if done at a sensitive age, around 9 - 12 months, help the dog never develop some of the more extreme sex related behaviours.

Lets look at the negatives. Some entire males find castrated dogs very 'humpable'. I explain above basically they do not understand the odour given off and presume it something bitchy but something they can't put their finger on. A castrated dog is also fair game down the pecking order in SOME cases to be humped by entire males. However a dog that humps a castrated dog is NOT a dominant dog, it is a wannabe dominant dog, flailing around trying to put his stamp on anyone lower than him or potentially so. A humping entire dog is, technically speaking, the playground bully who only picks on guys 'smaller' than him - grin.

A negative, is that the dog will require a general anethetic to have the op. This is such a small risk these days its hardly a negative but its been quoted to me by some as the reason their dog remains uncastrated. I believe the NCDL a few years ago quoted that an uncastrated dog is more likely to die statistically running across a road after a bitch than under the surgeons knife being castrated.

Now, as to the weight link. I myself don't go for this but some will disagree. I have castrated males and entire males. I believe they tend to have a lot less on their minds once castrated - obviously, women are SUCH a headache - grin - and so tend to be less 'busy'. This can clock up a bit less exercise and activity and therefore my suggestion is always that a castrated dog is on about 3/4 of the ration of an entire male. But it all boils down to individual dogs. If your entire male is a panting fool charging about looking for sex action then he WILL burn off lots of weight just being a stress head. Take that away and he WILL put on weight on the same amount of food.

If a dog puts on weight, look at your exercise. Many think a walk is all about throwing a ball and the dog charging off calories. Not so. A long steady walk with lots of hills (up AND down) or steady onlead pavement walking burns just as much in the long run than 15 minutes mad ball chasing and is FAR better for the dog.

I digress.

So there is NO need for a castrated dog to get fat. It certainly doesn't change its personality. People tend to use the words 'fat and lazy and boring' together for castrated dogs.... Duh! The dog gets fat, therefore gets lazy, therefore is boring and prefers lazing about doing very little! Its not rocket science but people miss this so often and then blame it on CASTRATION changing the dog Actually usually its (often) men who don't fancy it being done and they have heard this bandied about and so pick up on it and give it as a reason for not wanting to castrate. They cross their legs and think 'ouch!' But a dog is not a human and actually the worst sort of homes, more likely to cause trouble by having an uncastrated dog are the daft ones who look at their dogs as fluffy humans.

So thats a load of blurb i've written so I can copy and paste this into my puppy pack (entirely selfish!) as have been meaning to do it for ages I hope it wasn't preaching to you and I hope its helpful. It is only my own view that there are loads of reasons TO castrate and really none not to.

Di
 
Sean I won't bore you with a huge long 'Di' post. Any definate aggression is aserious, as you have identified. If I were you, put any dominance or pack ideas straight in the bin as dogs that are dominant, TRUELY dominant do NOT look for fights or problems. They tolerate and tolerate until they HAVE to usually swiftly and decisively assert their rank. They generally do NOT fight or wade in in a mindless fashion because every time they do they risk losing. If they lose they risk losing their rank. A truely dominant dog is usually quiet, quite independant and very easy to live with as he does NOT look for trouble.

MOST dogs also will not attack a dominant dog or even try it on. They know instantly and avoid him. Mostly arguments spark between wannabe's and middle of the road types jostling for status in a hopeless manner as they will never BE truely dominant dogs. Dominant dogs are born not made.

Can I point one thing out whilst I am completeing going against what i said and writing such a long post ;-) You say 'he rushes up and you are sure he would be definately aggressivge and only your intervention stops it'. Can I respectfully point out that a dog runs a lot faster than us. In the time it takes you to catch up and wade in to split them up he could have half killed that dog IF he was actualy going to wade in and be aggressive.

Chances are he has had a few successes of making very submissive dogs crouch and wee and be afraid, and he likes the adrenaline kick it gives him. Its a 'i'll bite you before you bite me approach' generally to begin with as a result of an attack as he had (and most of this sort of dog HAVE had, often more than once) however after a while it becomes almost a hobby and certainly a habit.

I won't try and explain cures as its impossible without seeing the dog face to face, indeed its dangerous if your instinct is this could end in tears one day shortly.

I will say that it will be a long hard struggle and castration may help some as it will remove in time the bitch hassling element from any of his behaviour and therefore will remove the chance of a bitches male comanion dog protecting her and a fight starting that way.

If I were you do exactly as you first said. Seek out a one to one from a trainer on a recognised website - preferably APDT as is listed earlier in the thread in your area. Call a few and speak at length. See if they sound like they know what they are talking about. Go to a one to one FIRST and ask them about going to sical classes with multiple dogs. Ratherthan going and having constant problems with him from start to finish.

certainly keep socialising him with his canine friends he definately likes a LOT and if I were you, right now, i would either avoid doggy places on walks till you have had one to one training, OR muzzle him for his own safety. people are quick to shout 'dangerous dogs act' these days when bitesoccur, or even scratches or nicks out of their precious fluffy.

Also, and more importantly in some ways, remember this all started for YOUR dog because he weas seton in the way your dog sets on others. I would lead walk only for now and muzzle if not temporarily to save any other owners this grief that you are going through by way of your dog passing on his problems.

Best!
Di
 
I have read this thread with interest, and I wrote to you about Jack's agression to small dogs, whch has now escalated to pretty much any dog, however its not a full on attack its a 'i'll get in before you do' kinda attitude and he makes them submit' although a terrier yesterday was having none of it and he learn't a lesson and tail between his legs backed off!

We now think that Jack's agression has stemed from the pain he is in from his now diagnosed Osteoarthritis, and he may have had the pain for some time and this is when the aggression was first ignited, that and being bundled by an over bositerous Yellow Lab!

The problem we now face is to help him 'unlearn' this behaviour.

Sometimes dog aggression can be often fueled by an injury and this is always worth looking into
 
Firstly thank you very much for your detailed response, it in no way bored me but was very helpfull & highly informative.

Bottom line, we’re be having some one-to-one training before any new socialising. I’ve got the list off the APDT website but also have had a local one recommended (not on the list) which is run by ex-police dog handlers, generally are they worth looking into as well?

Just a point regarding his aggression towards other dogs, he is generally quite close to me when off lead & I can get him on the lead before he spots a new dog in his vicinity. However when he has seen them before me he’s off at full speed but stops about 30m away then proceeds to advance tail & hackles up in a rigid stance maintaining eye contact. This is the time I can usually catch up with him, but on a few occasions when I haven’t he has proceeded to launch at the other dog with full growls barks and paws up.
This aside from the immediate problem also as you point out puts other dogs in the cycle of potential attack before being attacked mentality.

Thanks again!
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Sean

I am no expert but what i have done is booked a one to one with an APDT TRAINER who has said to me that she will assess Chesters behavior when he is in eye contact or near other dogs. She told me we can either go up to her dog school or she will come to me( i've choose to go up to her dog school) this 1 hour session is costing ÂŁ30.

When i phoned up and enquired about Chester behavior i asked how many times she thought i might need to go, she said that in most cases just one class is all that is needed.

Chester is booked to go on 19/11/06 so i will keep you posted how it went.

What i would also do is shop about for a APDT TRAINER i found big differences in price.

Pete
 
I would just be a touch cautious or someone who considers agrression to other dogs can be sorted in a one off session. They can certainly give you some advice and the tools to move forward but to my mind check ups will be more than necessary to update her and access if you hit stumbling blocks, which you will as setbacks can always occur.

Maybe she will advise you at length then send you to a regular class. Further socialisation is needed with dog to dog aggressive dogs under controlled circumstances. Just a meeting between a dog an owner and a trainer will not take you far forward as a one off thing, logic I hope tells you that further work with someone knowledgeable WITH dogs about about is going to be essential to move forward.

I'm sure the adpt trainer has this covered and your report on your meeting would be really really gratefully received on here for my interest and the others watching.

Remember on this forum and any other, for every one person brave enough to write, 10 are porbably watching who also have theproblem but don't wish to speak out or can't articulate it as well so your report would be really useful from your trainer...

Thanks a lot and good luck!

Di
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
To be honest the plan with chetser is to get him back into dog school,but until we can curb his aggression i can't do that and i intend to use this trainers particular school so fingers crossed.

( I keep you posted )

Pete
 
Great! Look forward to your progress reports.
Di
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Well the verdict isn't very good.

I took Chester yesterday to the 1 2 1 session were we had a chat about Chesters background and what he was like at home, we then did a bit of heel work just make him comfortable in the strange place.

Then she brought out her own dog where Chester went absolutely mad.
We just walked Chester up and down about 6 or 7 feet away from this dog to try and see if he would calm down which he didn't, we then reversed the situation and there was no change in his behavior.

She then sat me down and told me that Chester is dog aggressive and that it has probably always been there and that when he was attacked by the 2 bulldogs this has know brought this out of him. ( which i am totally gutted about )

I asked where i can now go from here. She advised castration would help as he wouldn't feel the need to be the dominate leader all the time.
She said that we can try and curb his aggression by taking his mind off what he wants to do and making him do what i want to do.

So i go back in 3 weeks for another 1 2 1.

Pete.

P.S What she also said was that his aggression was probably genetic.
 
Pete, I'm sorry things didn't go so well. I wasn't there so its hard to comment. Foe ME personally, you went there KNOWING the dog is dog aggressive, so to come to that conclusion is not overly helpful ;-( Knowing he is dog aggressive to walk the dogs only 6 or 7 feet apart to me was not helpful.

I wasn't there, I'll say it again so who am I to say, but dog aggressive dogs need to be gently introduced to new strange dogs, even in an assessment. If you hadn't the strength to hold your dog she could have put her own dog in a lot of danger.

Usually with the exercise she did, which is very helpful, you would start 20 or 30 foot apart wandering about without a care in the world doing some heelwork, sits and so on, till the dogs ignore one another. Then you go ten foot closer and do the same. maybe stop and have a chat with each other calling, letting the dogs see you are comfortable with one another, that there is nothing to be worried about as you have the situation under control.... then when thatis calm you might try 10 or 12 feet apart walking past one another distracting with food or a toy as you get very close... but this all can take 20, 30, 40 minutes to get this close... and for real dog aggression it might take 2 or 3 sessions...

Its just my opinion, I'll say one last time, I wasn't there, but her assessment from putting the two dogs nearly on top of each other and your dog losing it, that he is dog aggresive is not something you didn't know in the first place.

I garee castration CAN help in some cases. But generally only those cases based on pack structure and I'm sorry but dogs on a walk are not in the dogs own pack. Many domestic dogs have no more idea about packs and structures and dominance than us, they have been single dogs all their lives!

I'm glad she has suggested to go back for further work. I hope she doesn't tax the dog quite so rigourously straight off next time and eases him in a bit more to having contact with the other dog....

Best of luck and thank you!
Di
 
Can I ask, so in the 3 weeks what active steps has she given you? Are you going to castrate him in that time? Did she mention muzzling him at all to at least make sure no accidents happen between now and then? Did she give you any books to read or homework? ;-)

Di
 
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