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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
... A strange title but bear with me ;-) I have just picked up about 6 weeks worth of Dog Worlds - yes yes I should subscribe online and was most interested to read the shenanigans that has been going on in the GSD show world.

To recap very generally, after the Pedigree Dog programme presumably the KC have started looking very closely at the structure of the GSD and has picked a number of conformational points they are highly upset about - which - both understandably and as expected - exhibitors in the main appear not to be and seem to be able to justify (I don't know one end of a GSD from the other but both sides seem to have some fair points to me).

So the KC have threatened, and I think now have decided to remove CC's from the breed in 2012.

How that pans out I don't know, but I was thinking about if something happened in our breed of the like and the uproar of the KC 'tinkering' with our breed type and conformation....
and the fact they DO seem to have a threat to hold over our heads up their sleeves which I hadn't myself thought about...

Interesting times ahead because I know some of the top end of the KC still are not happy with the level of substance and weight on many dogs in the ring of our breed. I wonder where things travel from here...

Di
 
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Well you know how upset I was after "that" programme about the state of those GSD's, so all I can say is "Good" and "About Bleddy Time".

If the GSD people can't be trusted to do what's best for their breed, then someone else should do it for them before they turn their dogs into complete freaks, as has happened in other breeds.

As for what will happen to Labs, who knows, but you have said yourself the dogs in the ring are not as heavy today as they were a few years ago. So let's hope the Lab Societies keep moving in this direction then they won't need any "guidance" from the KC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I was interested to read in Dog World Jules, about a critique for a winning Labrador that basically said something along the lines of 'I appreciate this dog has been reduced in weight to try and come closer to the new breed standard but now he lacks substance and could use some more...' or something like that. An interesting predicament for those who show. And of course coats make such a huge difference (all stuff discussed in the article I know, i know, but points I hugely agreed with...)

It just struck me, the points we KNOW create debate in the show Labrador (for right or for wrong), could really turn things very nasty if the KC threw their weight around and forced certain issues (such as an upper weight limit or something like that).

I don't think you can really compare the problems in the GSD to those in the Labrador, but just was musing.

I believe collecting that many Dog Worlds always sets me off on something ;-)

Di
 

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I didn't see 'that' programme at the time, nor have I heard about the removal of cc's in 2012 for GSDs.

I will check this out with my friends who show their GSDs at champ level and have done for years now, and see what they know/have heard. They're away to the 2 day Champ Show this weekend, and I'm away this weekend too :wink: :D but I'll speak with them when I can and come back to this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
" As for what will happen to Labs, who knows, but you have said yourself the dogs in the ring are not as heavy today as they were a few years ago. "


.... just to add the disclaimer 'In the main'..... Also many of the prodominant stud dogs of today and last few years are not as heavy in build (bone, skull etc) as some of the major stud dogs of the 80's and early 90's in my view. So are tending no to throw hulking great creatures. Although still, your average working dog enthusiast would faint if they walked down the benches at a breed club championship show - but then I bet they always would have since about the 50's !! I am certain this would be nothing new ;-)

Di
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Basically Mo, the KC wanted action, or at least an admission that work was needed to improve, several breed points including strength and angle of second thigh, hock straightness and length of back. There are other points but these seem to be the main requirements for change.

No agreement could be made with the parent breed club on this. So the KC seem to be holding a gun to heads to force change.

As I read it anyway.
Di
 

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Hmmm, I imagine the breeder I know will be absolutely furious about it - although I don't think she'd disagree on some of the points criticised, like the hocks for example.

Interesting times!
 
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Diana said:
I was interested to read in Dog World Jules, about a critique for a winning Labrador that basically said something along the lines of 'I appreciate this dog has been reduced in weight to try and come closer to the new breed standard but now he lacks substance and could use some more...' or something like that.
But surely "substance" should mean bone and muscle, so unless the dog has had no exercise and now has no muscle tone, how can reducing it's weight reduce it's "Substance"?

As you know Substance is one of those words I have a petty hatred for, after seeing so many Show Ponies with their bloated bodies, hugely thick necks and their stick legs and pea heads...Stuffed to the max in the name of "Substance". Substance should never be confused with FAT in my books. :wink:
 

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Actually Di, in the KC article which I posted a link to shorty after Jemima's program, the KC did state that the awarding of CC's was within their control and that they would not hesitate to withhold them if the breed clubs did not play ball.

Are they wrong? I think not. The breed clubs, since seeking KC acceptance agree to abide by the KC rules.

Looked at from a different direction, what should the particular breeds look like? The Labrador has changed quite a bit over the years, but just look at the GSD! Half of the breed are not talking to the other half! The "German" GSD looks nothing like the "English" GSD. People have check to see which type of judge is judging before they enter in case they end up in the wrong type. There has been moves for years to split into two seperate breeds. The breed is a mess and the breed clubs are not sorting it. GOOD FOR THE KC! For once in their life they have drawn a line in the sand and I support them 100%

Regards, John
 

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I went out of Labradors for a few years and had a few years with GSDs and others.
It was the move in GSD's to the banana shape that made me cringe, that and being told that I should not exercise my dogs as it built up muscle in the wrong places. I said goodbye to the showing world and keepng GDS's for my pleasure and nothing more.
On going to Crufts on Gundog day for the first time in a few years in the mid 80's I was astonished to see the change in the Labs, enormous heads with the huge stops, very short legs with fat wobbly bodies. They were like freaks. I nearly turned tail and ran. Sense got the better of when I reminded myself that I had left showing forever and was going back to working.
However, I do still chop off the 'twizzle', somethings never change!
Sherry
 

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Another bone of contention with the KC vs GSDs is the double-handling issue.

Also, there is the "working" side of GSDs too - you could also argue that the breed is actually split 3 ways.

I own a GSD and have shown in the past and can actually see both sides of this argument. However, I also prefer, owned and showed the "international" type of dog (that's the type currently in the KCs sights at the moment). The other (English) type is too heavy, is weak-backed and is over-angulated at the hocks. The "international" type is also shown differently although it can be a bit extreme and are frequently handled by "handlers" as opposed to their owners. To see a GSD at full extension in a flying trot is, however, quite a sight to behold. However, part of the reason for showing GSD in the manner that they are shown is to test for any weakness in the dog - i.e. does it fall on the forehand after it has walked for a certain length of time, are the hocks strong enough, does it hold it's topline on the move - whilst I haven't been to a GSD show for several years, I can clearly recall seeing several judges asking for the dogs to be walked on loose leads with no outside attraction to see if the dogs retained their shape. Also, to be able to show an international type GSD you need to be pretty fit and able to run a lot!!

This style of showing, handling and judging was imported from Germany where it is seen at the annual Sieger Show. At this show, the adults (this refers to a a dog aged 2 years at least) are expected to complete a full circuit of a football stadium at a fast flying trot off the lead.!!

The breed is not perfect, but a number of health schemes have been introduced i.e. hip scoring, haemophilia testing etc. so the GSD isn't all bad and I don't think it really merits the heavy-handed approach that the KC are currently taking. There are other breeds in a far worse state than this.
 

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But the whole point is that you cannot have two totally different dogs in the same show ring at the same time. Either one is right or the other.

No, not all is bad about the GSD, hip scoring was first instigated by the GSD people and started by Dr Malcolm Willis and Geoff Thorp.

The style of showing you talk about is a real "Movement Judge" way. Some years back a friend and myself were invited to the Leonberger Champ Show, where Malcolm Willis was judging. He started the exhibitors moving their dogs in pairs up and down the ring, keeping one in and swapping the other until he had a rough order, then started moving the whole class around the ring. At intervils he would take one dog out and move it back in the order until after about 10 to 15 circuits of the ring he finally had his order. I remember in his critique he said that movement was not good. (not sure if that was the dogs movement or the handlers!!)

Regards, John
 

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John,

Totally agree that you cannot have two types of dog in the ring at the same time - both "sides" generally show under a judge who favours their particular type. I hope I don't offend anyone when I say this, but this is like having Field Trial/working labradors and pure show labradors in the same class at a show.

The KC needs to sit down with both sets of judges and sort them out first and debate whether the breed standard is being interpreted correctly bearing in mind the country of origin of the breed. Once the judges are singing off the same hymnsheet, then perhaps the breed could, as one, move forward positively.
 

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I know precious little about showing or show dogs, but from what I've read about GSDs and what's happened to the breed my understanding is that this is rather different to the show/working lines divide in Labs. With Labs I think there's an interesting debate about which type more properly reflects the breed standard. But with GSDs I think its reached the point where people are asking is the conformation being bred for actually prejudicial to the dog's health and welfare - and from what I've seen, many don't look good at all.

I say hats off to the KC for finally doing something - and the CCs are, after all, their's to withhold if the Breed Club(s) don't wise up. But what I think is interesting is why the KC are starting with the GSD: dogs that if they got back to where they were was some years ago might again tick all the right health boxes. However the Pekinese and similar breeds need considerably more reverse engineering.

Are the KC going for the low hanging fruit first? I hope they try and tackle the other breed clubs too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
" I hope I don't offend anyone when I say this, but this is like having Field Trial/working labradors and pure show labradors in the same class at a show. "


Certainly no offense from here I always enjoy reading the view of someone actually 'in there doing it'.

I think to a world where you might have a trialbred labrador and a showbred one fighting for the same top awards in a breed class and drift off into some kind of pleasant but unrealistic haze ;-)

I can however see exactly what you mean that the two GSD types just show under judges that breed *their* type. Really thats just an exaggerated version of any thinking showing persons choice of which shows to attend so as not to waste their money, I suppose.

I'm smiling at Sherry still trimming twizzles. Its a hard habit to break, Girl. You can get help for it though I believe.... ;-) ;-) Fish the oh so skinny one and Bondy meercat also have trimmed twizzles too yet likely as not will never set foot in anything except the Field Trial class if we were so lucky, so you don't walk alone in that ;-)

Di
 

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Diana said:
I was interested to read in Dog World Jules, about a critique for a winning Labrador that basically said something along the lines of 'I appreciate this dog has been reduced in weight to try and come closer to the new breed standard but now he lacks substance and could use some more...'
It very clearly says in the new 'revised Breed Standard that weight should not be used to create the effect of well sprung rib and substance - therefore to an outsider, this effectively says that if the dog doesn't meet that standard without it's excess weight, then................................

There are, and always have been in the relatively short time I've been showing, dogs that do meet the revised standard (prior to revision) while not carrying any excess weight.

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Re: GSD - this was my breed - a dog I have worshipped and adored since I was knee high to a grasshopper; a breed that at one point there was barely a piece of history / pedigree I didn't know about (god help me if the Internet had been around then 8O ); it would undoubtedly have been my first choice some 8 years ago when I was looking for our first family pet after a considerable time without a dog - BUT it didn't happen for two reasons

a) when I started looking around, I really did not like what I was seeing in terms of the dogs structure / movement, snipier heads, larger ears,

b) My OH is terrified of large dogs (although I have no doubt I could have worked on this one as he was initially NO dogs, and then not more than one, two etc :lol: )

I think the Labrador is a LONG way from the GSD in terms of the problems it is having - although interestingly, double handling in the ring is also identified as an issue - (and doesn't go un-noticed in our breed either)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
" There are, and always have been in the relatively short time I've been showing, dogs that do meet the revised standard (prior to revision) while not carrying any excess weight. "


Completely agree. Many. And many who don't but I don't think anyone would dispute that either. It was one of the main reasons I detested the fall out of the Pedigree Dogs programme where suddenly *everyone* was an expert on show dogs weight and build and the relationship between the two, and passed negative judgements from every direction, forums, pet owners chatting, radio, television, press pointing the finger in directions that only a minority were creating the poor stereotype.

I see JH has just been given the RSPCA's highest honour award for services to dogs. I feel now its time to leave the country and turn the light out! ;-)

Di
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Edited as not the thread time or place to go that deeply into this topic I waffled on about namely the old fit for function thingy. I think i've had DW overload ;-)
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Blypark said:
However, I do still chop off the 'twizzle', somethings never change!
:lol: :lol: I get ENORMOUS grief about our twizzles :lol: :lol: - my OH has taken to doing them now - but I am convinced Clover sleeps with one eye open, because even when she is fasto, she knows what he is planning and is up like a rocket.

In the past, it has not been unknown for a fellow exhibitor to grab her at a show and just cut it :oops: :oops:
 

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Sue, I also adore GSD's, but when I felt I was ready for another, my last one was age 14 when she died, I just couldn't find anything of the type I had, they were all snipey heads and low slung. My last one was from the Rothick kennel, Audrey Ringwald retired many moons ago and inded died last Easter, so no more of her dogs left. So, I went sideways and got a Rottweiler, love him, but once you had had a GSD - they are a hard act to follow. Nevertheless, I just could not live with the look of them as they are now.
Sherry
 
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