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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have always thought that you pay your stud fee and get option of 2 matings ( 1 if you would prefer :wink: ) and that if the bitch does not take then you have an option of trying again with her or another bitch .

Firstly : the fee

This can be of either the pick of the litter or money.

I know of a stud owner who took his fee in money and then wanted to choose a puppy from litter and pay the breeder the price of a pup ( which was cheaper ( £ 150 cheaper) than the stud fee he charged the breeder. Is this the correct protocol ?

Second situation :

Bitch owner pays stud fee and uses dog but bitch unfortunately does not take . Bitch subsequently had to be spayed . Bitch owner does not have another bitch but asks for pup in payment from stud dog owner who breeds quite alot instead of repayment of some of stud fee . should stud owner agree or not ?

Third situation:

Bitch owner pays stud dog owner after first mating , at which point stud dog owner said ' you will just be wanting one mating ' ( two matings agreed prior :wink: . and stud dog owner follows this up with we have another bitch booked in now . What would you do as the bitch owner .

Just some situations that I have come accross and pondered upon . Any views on these situations ?
 

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There is no "Rules" as such and any stud dog owner is at liberty to make whatever terms they want. And in the same way, a bitch owner is at liberty to accept or refuse those terms. Some will offer a couple of matings, Some will give a free service if the bitch misses. Some might ask for pick of litter, and by the same token, some bitch owners may say "No, you can have second pick because I want my pick first."

It's up to the dog and bitch owners to come to an agreement.

Regards, John
 

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Point one - Well I charge a low fee so this would never happen - the pups are always sold for more than my fee. Although in the past I have had a pup "free" instead of a fee I have wondered if I ought to have paid some money for the pup too.

Point two - I would refund some of the stud fee - the amount would depend on the circumstances but at least half. A puppy from another litter would be a seperate deal (although wouldn't apply to me as I only have boys)

Point three - dreadful. what is agreed, is agreed. If circumstances in some way meant I was unable to honour my agreement I would refund part of the fee - in an amicable agreement with the bitch owner. But no way do what you say in your example

Katy
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi John,

It would seem then that there are no clear guidelines just a make it up as you go, unlike the horse people that do the 'no foal fee returned' type of thing .

How very interesting , so basically if you decided to use a stud dog it pays to get everything down in writing as to what each party is happy with :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Katy it is interesting to get the stud dog owners perspective , I am inagreement with your comments and it is how I thought that things would be :D , I just seem to have heard so many different ways of looking at this .


I do wonder if the horse system ' no foal fee returned ' does not have some merits , if for example the bitch did not take twice ( I am now putting my helmet :lol: on for the backlash :D ). What do other people think :?: should we be going down this route ? With stud fees sometimes around the £500 mark breeders are making a heck of a investment when potentially they could come away with nothing ( worst possible scenario ). What do stud dog owners think ?
 

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Zensmum said:
With stud fees sometimes around the £500 mark breeders are making a heck of a investment when potentially they could come away with nothing ( worst possible scenario ).
I believe we sit on opposite sides of the show / work fence, but what, in your opinion, would warrant that sort of stud fee? something pretty special I would have thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sue, £500 seems to be the going rate for a FTch and £400 for a FT winner,Is it less on the show side ? ( just quoting the prices from various websites.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Labler, very best wishes with your breeding plans next year, I do hope that your experiences are good :wink: .
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I think that there seems to be a big variation in prices . Some £400 up to £1000 depending upon breeding lines and particular breeders. There may be others on this forum that would have a more accurate idea than I have :wink:
 

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Zensmum said:
I think that there seems to be a big variation in prices . Some £400 up to £1000 depending upon breeding lines and particular breeders.
I know of two breeders selling pups around the £1,000 mark 8O but generally pups seem to range between £450 up to around £650 from many of the established breeders.

Zensmum - I did a bit of digging around on show stud fees - based on my own experiences and many of the responses I got, the rates seem to be around the £400 mark - I've paid slightly more and slightly less than that - so as a guide figure it seems around that.
 

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I've not yet read any replies so these are purely gut reactions to the three senarios.....

" I know of a stud owner who took his fee in money and then wanted to choose a puppy from litter and pay the breeder the price of a pup ( which was cheaper ( £ 150 cheaper) than the stud fee he charged the breeder. Is this the correct protocol ? "


I'm not 100% understanding, are you asking should the stud fee have been the same price as a puppy? Stud fees can be more expensive than puppies, they can be cheaper. And he did right, in my eyes taking a stud fee then offering to pay full price for a puppy (even if the pup was cheaper than his stud fee), yes.


" Second situation :
Bitch owner pays stud fee and uses dog but bitch unfortunately does not take . Bitch subsequently had to be spayed . Bitch owner does not have another bitch but asks for pup in payment from stud dog owner who breeds quite alot instead of repayment of some of stud fee . should stud owner agree or not ? "

I would say stud dog owner should not agree. They may take pity on the folks and offer them some money off a puppy. Maybe offer some of the stud fee back. But they would in my view be quite within their *rights* to do none of the above. When a stud fee changes hands its for a mating (or matings) and NOT for a litter. That needs always remembering. So the fact no pups appeared and then their only bitch was spayed is really, sadly, just tough. Many WOULD offer some compensation as such, but many also, would not. neither would be wrong in my view.


" Third situation:
Bitch owner pays stud dog owner after first mating , at which point stud dog owner said ' you will just be wanting one mating ' ( two matings agreed prior . and stud dog owner follows this up with we have another bitch booked in now . What would you do as the bitch owner "

Tricky. So verbally they agreed TWO matings but then after the first one the stud owner is basically saying - I have no time for the second as we have another bitch coming?

Well.... gosh, thats a toughie. There is really no requirement to give TWO matings as long as the first was of accaptable quality. Really the stud dog owner should have just mated two bitches on the same day (both have a completely equal chance of being in pup as him just mating one, infact the second one has a BETTER chance....) or just mated on consequative days rather than upsetting a customer by refusing them a second mating.

Trouble is the traditional thinking tends to be that stud dog owners should give second matings because maybe sometimes the owners bring their bitch, and they get a mating, but feel she was not *quite* right and 48 hours will make all the difference - which it often will. BUT realy its down to the bitch owner to bring their bitch at the right time. Not the stud dog owner to mate and mate till the bitch is right. Not if their boy is busy.... and its a busy time.

But of course if two matings were agreed, even if a second bitch was in the frame, two matings should eb given and are perfectly easy to juggle. Even if the first bitch needs to come two days in a row or leave it an extra day to come.

Di
 

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" I do wonder if the horse system ' no foal fee returned ' does not have some merits , if for example the bitch did not take twice ( I am now putting my helmet on for the backlash ). What do other people think should we be going down this route ? With stud fees sometimes around the £500 mark breeders are making a heck of a investment when potentially they could come away with nothing ( worst possible scenario ). What do stud dog owners think ? "




........... Chuckle. Take your helmet off ;-) Thats what i think ;-) Its something that pops up now and then.

'No foal no fee' would be grossly unfair in the canine world. Its become a tradition in the horse world and thats fine, but you tend to either get your mare covered.....or you don't. You don't tend to force a mare into accepting a stallion when she is not ready. canine matings under controlled circumstances, which taking your bitch to a stud dog, is not quite like that. In the canine world of course if a mating doesn't happen no fee is paid. But often bitches can be forced (or 'cajolled in a number of ways' might be a better way of putting it), or will accept a dog quite happily when they are not ovulating. Mares will almost never allow that to happen I think you'll agree.

So the STUD fee is for the studs services. You bring your bitch that YOU say is ready (after all the stud dog owner can only give advice). The dog mates her to the best of his ability (most times the lack of a tie is not the dogs fault but the internal set up and muscle tone of the bitch - OR the fact she won't stand steady, or maybe a height differential....) its then whether she was producing eggs, whether those eggs were viable, if she can hold pups or absorbs, care of her during pregnancy and all sorts of other factors as to if pups appear after 63 days.

The stud fee is for sperm - and getting that sperm into the bitch - not pups ;-) Yes most bitches if mated well, take. But many don't. And don't to previous or subsequent dogs. Proving the problem lay with her (and owners often admit this its not often something contraversial). She may be so difficult to mate that she gives herself little chance of the dog doing much more than dip in and out and then fall off her.....

There are so many stud dog owners out there its so variable. But in general, most will do their utmost to get every bitch pregnant. Most DO on paper operate a no foal no fee scheme because most will allow a different bitch to come back to the dog free if the first one proves barren, or overly difficult. Most will give two, three or more matings if the owners want them and the bitch will stand for them. Many give the first service....the free return and if she is STILL not pregnant will allow another bitch to come to the dog if he is not busy for a half fee, or no fee at all even.

Its good customer relations to get bitches in pup. Noone LIKES the call to say she is empty... free returns are hassle noone wants, bitch, bitch owner, stud dog owner (maybe only the stud dog is happy when bitches miss!)

Some stud dog owners do a similar thing where they charge, say a £150 non refunable handling fee (that doesn't have a free return attached to it), then £50 per live viable puppy born. Great for the bitch owner if she only has 2 or 3 pups or misses..... a nightmare if she has 13! ;-) Also you reply on the honesty of the bitch owner as to how many pups were born. After all you tend not to go visit every litter if you are offering a dog at stud regularly.

Just my opinion. Buts thats, remember as a bitch owner as well as a stud dog owner ;-)

Di
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi Diana and Hi Sue \:D/

What a fascinating post Di , thanks for your reply 8) these were just some of the scenarios that I have come across and thought that it would be interesting to get a stud dog owners perspective . I have taken off my helmet now :lol: :lol: was not sure if my mentioning the horse world would be well received or not :wink: .

Sue it is interesting to know that the show side has similar stud and puppy prices :D .

Have noticed that there are not many prices mentioned on the advertisments ( now I am not saying that they should or that they should not be on these adverts :wink: ) so it can sometimes be hard to tell how the prices are changing unless you are mixing with either alot of gundog handlers who will know what the going rate would be or other breeders.
 
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