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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello

I’m new here, just looking for some advice.

My 5 year old choc lab has been used as stud with 2 bitches over the last few weeks and didn’t manage to get a tie either time. Both were maiden bitches, 1 was incredibly giddy. No matter how we held, tried to help she would move, swish her tail or drop her legs, despite being very ready and clearly giving off the scent.

He is proven, and has sired 4 litters naturally and has 1 on the way (through A.I.). He’s never had problems in the past, and once got a tie within 5 mins of the bitch arriving (experienced bitch). In other occasions he’s always got at least 1 tie over the 2 matings, dependent on how ready the bitch was. Not all have resulted in pregnancy, though I know he’s extremely fertile as he’s been fertility tested.

Just wondering if anyone has any idea why we’re not getting a tie. He fully thrusts and gets into what i call the ‘climbing the stairs’ motion. When he slips out, he will be fully enlarged, we are just not getting to the next stage. We get lots of requests about him being mated, I obviously filter through them, but at the moment I’m reluctant to do any.

Thanks
 

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Question, what day did you attempt to mate on? Were the bitches progesterone tested. (A couple of days can make so much difference.) Did the skittish bitch hurt him at all? (Thinking if she did then he might be wary about entering too deeply, which could easily result in not achieving a tie.) I would always recommend the bitches be progesterone tested these days. I know it's an added expense for the bitch owner, but it does cut out the guess work. If the bitch was not really ready then that could have resulted in a half hearted attempt on the part of your dog. In the days before that was available we twice mated a bitch who would never stand for a dog before day 15, and only produced one pup each time. Thinking back, I'm sure we were too early and day 17 or even later would have been more successful for her. A friend, very well known in working circles had a bitch she could never mate before day 23!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Thank you so much for your reply. No the bitches weren’t progesterone tested before hand. I will recommend this in the future.

The first bitch (where we had no tie) would stand quite happily. She was brought to us 4 times over 4 days (between days 12 and 16). My boy is very persistent in trying, but just could not get that tie. This is the one that concerns me most, as usually he’s never had a problem and this bitch was standing, but as you say it still could have been a little off with the timing.

He had A.I a few weeks after that mating (with another bitch) the vet thoroughly checked his bits and we got a good collection. This resulted in pregnancy so I know he had no issue sort of speak.

I kind of understand why he never tied with the maiden giddy one. She wasn’t still anywhere near enough for him to get a proper thrust on, so even though he was persistent I don’t think it was ever going to happen. The bitches owner was quite rude and blamed my dog, even though we tried holding, assisting etc.


We have a few more people interested, but this has made me a little reluctant as I don’t want to waste anyone’s time. It’s also frustrating as no tie matings tend to take the most amount of time and effort (to try and get the deed done) and result in no payment.
 

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Were it me I'd not be too worried. You will always get the occasional mating without a tie, and to me you have only had one. I would not count the one where the bitch was uncooperative. And of course a tie is not necessary for a successful mating.

Yes, of course, to the bitch owner the stud dog is always to blame! I so remember the day we mated a friend's Flatcoat bitch. The stud dog owner and myself, sitting on straw bales in the middle of the Fens on Christmas eve in freezing fog. Me supporting the bitch while the stud owner held him through what seemed like an hour's tie, while the owner of the bitch sat in the house drinking coffee! 🤣
 

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Will he let you help him? Some dogs need a little human intervention and that might be enough to just do the trick (assuming the bitches are ready and have been tested). Some dogs won’t perform at all under such circumstances.The sire of my most recent pup has got three bitches in whelp but only when no one was looking (they weren’t panned exactly but all involved were tested, he’s wasn’t permitted near direct siblings or dam, and the breeder was aware)...he’s the only yellow on the premises, the only other male is pure black so no question of who the sire is when a yellow or black carrying yellow bitch produces yellow puppies. Try to get him to mate, or offer assistance and he’s not interested at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you, I think we’ll only count it as 1 no tie mating considering the nature of the bitch. Some dogs just can’t be bred from it seems, it’s natures way of sending a message. I later found out they’d tried to breed her on a previous season to no avail.

I can’t believe the cheek of the bitch owner you mentioned. I’m no expert believe me, but I’ve spoken to some totally clueless bitch owners since we started doing stud.

Can I ask - would you still charge something for a slip mating, to cover time taken, efforts of stud dog etc? We have stud contract we send out before any mating takes place, just wondering whether I need to add a line about slip matings.

Thanks

Were it me I'd not be too worried. You will always get the occasional mating without a tie, and to me you have only had one. I would not count the one where the bitch was uncooperative. And of course a tie is not necessary for a successful mating.

Yes, of course, to the bitch owner the stud dog is always to blame! I so remember the day we mated a friend's Flatcoat bitch. The stud dog owner and myself, sitting on straw bales in the middle of the Fens on Christmas eve in freezing fog. Me supporting the bitch while the stud owner held him through what seemed like an hour's tie, while the owner of the bitch sat in the house drinking coffee! 🤣
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for your reply. Yes he’s happy for us to get involved and hold a bitch for him. He’s not as keen on us holding him, we did manage to guide him in to the giddy bitch but she just wasn’t having it and would move quite sharply so he’d slip out.

I’m starting to think that on these 2 occasions it was down to the bitch / timing. A breeder friend of mine has been let down by her stud at the last minute so my boy is going down there today (she’s used him for one of her other labs before with no problems), so we’ll see how he gets on. 🤞🏻

Will he let you help him? Some dogs need a little human intervention and that might be enough to just do the trick (assuming the bitches are ready and have been tested). Some dogs won’t perform at all under such circumstances.The sire of my most recent pup has got three bitches in whelp but only when no one was looking (they weren’t panned exactly but all involved were tested, he’s wasn’t permitted near direct siblings or dam, and the breeder was aware)...he’s the only yellow on the premises, the only other male is pure black so no question of who the sire is when a yellow or black carrying yellow bitch produces yellow puppies. Try to get him to mate, or offer assistance and he’s not interested at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Just a little update.

Took my boy to my breeder friends bitch and they had a tie with in 10 minutes. The girl was obviously ready.

We’ve also had a call to say that the bitch he first missed a tie with is pregnant. They’ve had a scan and have seen at least 3 puppies.

So in light of that I think I will change our stud contract and still charge for slip matings if my boy has given it a really good go.

Thanks for your reassurance. I will certainly recommend progesterone testing in future, especially for maiden bitches to make things a little more straight forward.
 

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To be fair, I've used progesterone testing twice, spent a lot of money, and not got the right information at the right time. I then had a planned litter with a stud dog owner who was familiar with ferning, and got amazing results, two ties and a litter (6 pups), and the next time round one tie and a litter (11 pups). I would look at ferning, although not scientifically proven, as another alternative as it did work for us, and progesterone testing didn't work due to timings of blood testing over weekends.
 
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