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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi

I live in Dorset and I am looking for a choc lab bitch pup to join 'Buddy' my black lab and my family. I am in the middle of moving house at the moment so wouldn't be looking seriously until April time. I will be looking at possibly breeding her with Buddy at a later date and have noticed a lot of local breeders have the same line as Buddy, so would be looking further a field or at least without the Lembas/Sandylands pedigree line.
I would be very grateful of any recommendations.

Shall be posting pictures of Buddy very soon! This is an excellent site and it is a relief to see that I'm not the only devoted labrador fan! :p
 

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Hi Corbin
Welcome to the forum. Firstly, I’m not sure of your experience in either labs or breeding and forgive me if I am wrong, but from your post, I would suspect that you are new to breeding if not labs.
I’m not sure why you would wish to avoid Lembas and Sandylands – and although Gwen Broadley is no longer with us, these are certainly amongst the top kennels in the UK. What lines have you researched, and have you found any you think will be compatible? Have you had your dog assessed as good enough to use at stud, even a long line of champions does not mean that the dog will be good enough to be bred from.

Before you use your dog as a sire it is important that he is independently assessed – do you show or work him?
It is also important that you are aware of changes in his behaviour if he is used at stud like marking in the house, wandering off in search of bitches, howling the house down if a bitch comes in season within a couple of miles radius (unfortunately, once they have mated it becomes a priority for them!) and he may become aggressive to other male dogs.
Also, you will need to know how to manage the mating to avoid injury to either or both dogs and it’s generally known that mating two maidens is not a good idea anyway.
In addition, where two dogs are brought up together in the same house, it is common that they will not mate (although please don’t assume this and have an accidental mating).
If you really want to start breeding I would recommend that you become involved either in showing or working (given your boys lines, I assume it would be showing), study the breed, find the ‘type’ that you like, learn to recognise a dogs good points as well as its faults. Learn about the dogs behind the names, what their parents / siblings are like, see if you can pick out family traits, and see from their offspring what type of traits they throw. Even if you spend all your time reading up and visiting shows, you will need the help of a mentor, someone who is already experienced in the breed, so join a breed club. By doing that you will discover the type of lab you like and who breeds them well. Approach them with regards buying a bitch (you may well have a wait) and let them know thay you want to breed - there will be those that should not be bred from even in the best bred litters. You will need to wait until your girl is at least two, preferably nearer three, and if she turns out as hoped, clears the health tests, you will have her breeder to advise and help you. That way you will be able to produce puppies to be proud of. Few good breeders ever breed from their first dog, however good they thought they were when they first got it, so you will be in good company.
HTH
 

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HI Lablover
All I can say to your reply is Amen.
It is most important that anyone who wants to breed needs to do all you have recommended.
Everything needs to be dealt with and gone into very thoroughly just as you have so ably put. Why not be a Mentor?? that is meant in all sincererity. Meg
 

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choc lab breeders

Hi Corbin,
You don't say if your staying in the Dorset area or not. Im off to look at two choc lab bitches this afternoon at 'Jim Joy' breeders in Kiddiminster. Harry, my yellow is a descendant of the JimJoy line and hes been a great companion and very well behaved, although i didn't have him directly from the Jim Joy kennels. I have spoken to the breeder and she says the puppies are a minky colour not he usual dark choc, they aren't any good for showing but I only want a pet and don't want to breed with her. I'll let you know later if I bring one home.
Harrys mum was yellow and all his dads side were chocs , i've since been told that a yellow lab and choc lab should never be bred together.

smiffy
 

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Hi Smiffy
I know you have said that you only want a pet and do not want to breed, but if you would like a good chocolate coloured puppy why go for a mink as you state, this is not chocolate. You are quite right it is not a good idea to have yellow in a chocolate line, it should be avoided. Meg
 

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Hi Meg
I'm new to chocs so I dont realy now what shade mink is, depends on what colour chart you use, dulux or crown?'
on a serious note, we have just lost a black puppy so I thought that if i had another black lab it would remind me too much of Heidi.
they're asking #450 is this a reasonable price as i paid #250 for harry 11 yrs ago and we had Neo for free as he was too much trouble for his previous owners.
smiffy
 

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Hi Smiffy
I have heard people call a certain shade of yellow a mink, the definition of yellow is any shade between cream and fox red. Chocolate to me is a lovely dark coat, but some look like for ( a better explanation milk chocolate, ) which to me is not a true chocolate. With this colour coat you get the goosberry eye, like a Weimaramer, which in a Labrador spoils the whole expression. I do not know what the price is in the Midlands and further North I believe they are cheaper. Puppies tend to be more expensive in the South. All I can advice you is to really go into the history of the colours behind the pedigree, if you want a nice dark chocolate.
I can understand fully that you do not want another black dog at the moment as it may be too painful, but a yellow would be different.
I am not against Chocolates because at one time I owned all three colours and to me they are all wonderful. But if you go for a chocolate you need to get the right breeding, and that is not with yellow ancestors.
I realise that you only want a pet, but you are paying good money so, think carefully. Temperment must play a very important part, hips, eyes,
and elbows need to come into the questions you put to any breeder.
Good Luck Meg
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Everyone, :p :p

I would just like to go back to Lablovers comments and very good advise which I have taken on board. I am new to the lab breeding scene but would like to add that under no circumstances would I consider breeding without taking everything in to consideration. I realise that Buddy will go under assessments as well as all the health checks and I can quite honestly say if he didn't meet the requirements then all would not be lost as I would still have a loving lab whom I adore. I worked as a veterinary nurse for many years and how often did I see a variety of breeds purely bred for the money without even a hint of compassion for the dogs in their care. I have done a lot of research and am keen to hear advise from people who have good sound experience.

At first I felt quite defensive of lablovers comments but only to feel reassured for I truly believe if I were someone who was thinking this is going to be a easy way to make a few pounds then I surely would have been put off!

My first posting was in the broadest of context when I said about avoiding the lembas/sandylands pedigree what I should have said is I want to avoid his direct line as many of the litters I have heard of in this area are direct descendents from his parents/grandparents/cousins/siblings and so on....which are lembas/sandylands. Obviously I would not hesitate with the lembas/sandylands pedigree as I am aware of their status in the lab world.

Buddy is from the show line and is a credit to his breed now I am being biast! Seriously though I am looking for a choc bitch and if both don't work out to breeding standards then thats fine with me, if they do then it is a real bonus as this has always been a dream of mine to be involved with breeding labs and to really enjoy the breed just that big step further. I have always been surrounded by dogs particularily labs and this would be a fantastic working hobby.

I am in contact with Buddys breeder and we are meeting up along with all Buddys siblings to celebrate their first birthday in July . It will be very interesting to see how they all compare and to get more advise.

Lastly I do live in Dorset but am willing to travel to find the right breeder with the right pup for me.

I apologise for a general reply to everyone...only haven't had a chance to catch up until now!

Many thanks

Corbin. :p



 

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Hi Corbin
So glad to read your reply, and the comments you make.
One question I must mention is do you know whether your Black Lab carries Chocolate? if he does not then you will not have any Chocs in the litter. He also could be dominent black then you will only have black puppies. You need also to be careful if he has a lot of yellow behind him, which coming from the Lembus line he probably will have. Just a few thoughts Meg
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Meg,

Thats a good point he does have chocolate along his mothers line but he does also have yellow along his fathers side(Lembas). I will definately have to study Buds pedigree in further detail before I make any decisions he's only a 7mth old youngster bless him so have plenty of time. Thanks for your thoughts CORBIN[/quote]
 

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Hi Corbin
Glad you replied and hope you haven't taken offense, it was meant to be helpful and informative, not in any way unkind. If I sound a bit harsh it's because so many people breed their dogs with little knowledge.
If Buddy's only 7 months, why don't you start showing him. You will gets some unbiased opinions from people with experience, and it will also be an opportunity to meet others with experience and learn. Also, if you want to use him as a stud dog, you need to get him seen. It's the owners of bitches that choose, the stud dog, and there are plenty of good dogs already, if you advertise, you are likely to get those who aren't experienced and just wish to produce pups. You also need to get some 'hands on' experience for stud work. :shock: Find a reputable stud owner, and ask if you can assist with some matings. As you've been a vet nurse, hopefully you won't be too squeamish, it can be very 'hands on' and without being to graphic, it has been known that an inexperienced stud has needed a helping hand (literally) to get him in the mood :shock: :D .
Megaloo has made some good observations about colours, and as I said even the best pedigree does not always mean a great dog (except to us of course). I have a great dog on paper. Would I breed him? no way, he has faults. It's possible some of his siblings would be worthy, but not him.
That is my objective assessment, of course I love him to bits and in my eyes he's a great dog, but when it comes to breeding you do need to be objective.

The reason I queried your avoiding Lembas/Sandylands lines is that one of the most common misconceptions, and a dead giveaway that someone doesn't know much about breeding (sorry, please don't take it personally) is the idea that you should not mate two dogs who have common ancestors. If they have no common ancestors (an outcross), you are taking a gamble, this method at best, usually produces fairly average or less than average dogs. In breeding should really be left to the experts, but most good breeders use line breeding where the bitch and stud have common ancestors on the third or fourth generation back. To bring in new traits, breeders will outcross, but then come back to the line. Also, don't forget that just because they share the same affix does not mean they are related.

With regards to getting your bitch, your own breeder would be a good place to start, particularly if they are experienced, but I would also seek advice from other breeders. As megaloo pointed out chocolate to yellow matings are a no. Contact the breed club, become a member, even if you don't show Buddy, visit the shows, talk to the owners and breeders and do your research into the type you like, and who is breeding them. Once you find a breeder you like then talk with them about what you wish to do, and say you are looking for your foundation bitch. Most breeders are only too happy to help those who wish to get involved, provided they are willing to learn and do their 'apprenticeship'. What they don't like is the 'isn't my dog great - I want to breed him brigade'. I'm sure with your approach, they will be more than willing to help you.

If you do wish to go ahead, remember that this is just the first step on a long road where you never stop learning. Good luck, in a breed where so many average and poorly bred labs abound and so many are bred for pet homes with little thought other than basic health clearances, the breed needs good, thoughtful breeders who are willing to learn, and thus provide this wonderful breed with a future.
:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Lablover, :p

Thank you for your reply and no I haven't taken offence only advise! I have so much to learn and I want to do it right. Its good to know there are people out there who are only to keen to help someone like myself who is new to the breeding scene. I shall be taking the necessary steps of joing a breed club, taking Buddy to shows and will be speaking to his breeder for some advise, plus of course using this forum!!!

Speak again soon....Corbin :D
 

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Reputable choc breeders

Hi Cobin, Megaloo and Lablover,

Sorry its been a couple of days since i've been in touch only I have been very busy with our new pup Beth. I did have her from the JimJoy breeder. took one look at her and fell head over heels in love! Shes chocolate to me even if it is milk chocolate. We were shown the puppies parents which were both dark chocs ( I think there might have been alittle bit of kennel hopping going on because the breeder has a yellow lab dog for stud as well) when i can understand how to make an album you will beable to see what shade of choc she is, I think she looks abit like a snicker bar.
Took her to the vets and she has her first vaccination next week. she has the runns at the moment but hasn't been sick she well inher self. In fact shes terrorizing our other two labs. I haven't starved her because it seems to harsh a thing to do but i'm feeding her on chicken and rice if she doen't improve i'll take her back to the vets.

Smiffy
 

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HI Smiffy
Thanks for keeping us up to date. That is one big problem when you visit a litter of Pups it is so easy to fall. But I think you did say you did not intend to breed? I do hope she will bring you a lot of pleasure. Keep a good eye on her with the runs, I am sure you will. It could be just a change of enviroment, but we have to be very careful when it is a puppy so young, I think also that there are quite a number of dogs at the kennels, because I think that they breed a number of litters a year.

Best of luck let us know how Beth gets on. I had a Black lab called Beth some 30 years ago and she was wonderful so I do hope yours will equal what ours was. Meg
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi Smiffy,

Thanks for the update, can't wait to see the piccies of Beth. Hope she gets better soon, I agree I think its a bit harsh to starve her at the moment, chicken and rice usually does the trick! I too haven't figured out the photo album as haven't added pictures of Buddy yet!

I'm sure you are going to have bundles of fun with Beth and I look forward to hearing how you'll all getting on! :D Corbin :p
 
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