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Hello Pauline and John
My two labs KC details as promised.
Firstly Arya, Hawksbeck Jemima bn 15.8.09 Sire Bohasset Jupiter, Dam Blomvisk Libra of Kingsfolly.
Thistle, Darling Dot bn 2.5.20 Sire Bickerdyke Scorpios. Dam Kenaiteen The Clown.
I have copies of both 5 gen. I would love any comments on their backgrounds. Arya has many FTCH on sire's side and we were told connections to a Sheikh in Abu Dhabi. Who knows though 🤔
Thistle was sired by a stud who is very busy it seems. I'm hoping my due diligence is sound regarding her future health. Her sire, aka Brig, is owned by the same person who sourced both Arya and Millie for us. I don't intend breeding but am interested in their ancestry.
Many thanks
Gillian
 

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Just very quickly Gillian, (I'll come back later, unless Pauline feels like fielding this.)

Arya's great grandsire was Baildonian Baron of Craighorn, a dog near to my heart. Baron was born on the 20th July 1994, bred by Mr G B Tinsley, (Baildonian) and was sold to Tom Smith in Scotland, (Craighorn) Tom Smith trialed him, taking him to 4th place in the 1998 (I think it was) International Gundog League Retriever Championship, which is to working gundogs what Crufts is to show dogs. He was then brought by Mike Stewart of the Wildrose kennel in America. But before leaving these shores he was mated to several bitches including Shadowsquad Britanya, where he sired, if I remember right, three dogs and two bitches. And this is where I came in. The pups were bred by Mrs R Cheyney, and I went to see them. Two nice yellow bitches, one would not leave me, and Roz said, "I can see which one you're having!" I said "No, she's too clingy, I'll have the other one." At that time the pups were 5 weeks old, so three weeks later I went to pick my pup up. Again one ran over to me and would not leave me, so I thought, "To hell with it!" and picked her up and asked, "You've not sold this one yet?" and the answer came back "No." So I said, "OK, she's the one." And she became my Anna. She sat beside me picking up on shoots, she could beat if I needed her to, she worked a few Gundog Working Tests, qualified for the England finals of the Game Conservancy working test at the Midland Game Fair. This was Anna being sent for a retrieve along the fence.



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How lovely!
Your Anna is a real beauty too, and there is definitely a likeness with Arya. Build, colour etc. Beautiful :D
 

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And I notice Thistle's Great great grandsire is Craighorn Bracken, who was also the great grand sire of my Amy! Bracken was bred and owned by Tom Smith in Scotland. Bracken won the 2001 IGL Retriever Championship. This is a 3 day trial, and to me, after the first day the trial it was only his to lose! He never put a paw wrong for the whole 3 days! Below is my Amy, who sadly died in February, just short of 15 years old. When Anna was young I met a young dog I really liked, Tibilla Dusk of Endacott, and it was always my intention to use him on Anna, but it was not to be. At the time my father's illness ruled it out, then it was too late and Anna was too old. Anne Courtier, who owned Dusk said not to worry, when I was ready for a pup to let her know, and as soon as a nice bitch arrived to be mated she would let me know. One morning the phone rang and Anne said, "Come and have a look at this bitch and see what you think of her." I liked what I saw and came home, phoned the owner of the bitch and put my name on a pup. So Amy was my Dusk puppy!

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Thank you John for that. Another fabulous 'meant to be'. I'm a strong believer in such matches and all my bitches chose me.
Amy is also beautiful. I do adore the yellow girls. Millie (Gems High Place)had Bracken (I think) in her ancestry which gives a connection. Tentative as it is, it means a lot to me. I do remember your Amy from a good few years back when I was very active on the forum. She made a grand age. It's never easy when we lose them, but we're so enriched from the time we're blessed with.
Thank you for taking the time to research and share your memories too 😊
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Many thanks, John. So goo
Many thanks, John. So good to have the same layout that I have e.g. Breedmate. I'm having (I really mean we're both having) a tough time with our damn printer. It's switched on, and has been for 5 minutes and when you send something to print, it says it's offline. It's driving me mad. It's only about 2 years old, but I think we are going to ditch it and go and get another one. The one we replaced this one with had seen a great deal of printing, whilst I was doing Family History research on my great great great grandfather, Moses 1818 to 1918 for a bi-centenary bash in Bristol. I wish we had kept it.

Love that picture of you sending the light cream girl off to do her stuff (can't quite remember he name) she is so like my Poppy (Cambremer Quicksilver at Stelmarin) in both colour and build. Your beloved Amy, what a great colour, almost Fox Red and a bit like the colour of the late Magnus (Sharouns Ganymede at Stelmarin) ... we loved having the very different colours.

Pauline
 

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Discussion Starter #110
Hello Pauline and John
My two labs KC details as promised.
Firstly Arya, Hawksbeck Jemima bn 15.8.09 Sire Bohasset Jupiter, Dam Blomvisk Libra of Kingsfolly.
Thistle, Darling Dot bn 2.5.20 Sire Bickerdyke Scorpios. Dam Kenaiteen The Clown.
I have copies of both 5 gen. I would love any comments on their backgrounds. Arya has many FTCH on sire's side and we were told connections to a Sheikh in Abu Dhabi. Who knows though 🤔
Thistle was sired by a stud who is very busy it seems. I'm hoping my due diligence is sound regarding her future health. Her sire, aka Brig, is owned by the same person who sourced both Arya and Millie for us. I don't intend breeding but am interested in their ancestry.
Many thanks
Gillian
Lovely to have this information. I'm almost sure John will be 'on the ball' much quicker than I will, as he is much more knowledgeable about backgrounds than I, I'm just an interested bystander really
who adores this breed, whether trialling or show or just pets (which they all are to a certain extent).

Pauline
 

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Love that picture of you sending the light cream girl off to do her stuff (can't quite remember he name) she is so like my Poppy (Cambremer Quicksilver at Stelmarin) in both colour and build.
She was Britannias Seraph. As you can see, a mix of show and work lines. I've had dogs with better noses than her, but she could be handled better than anything before of since, hence her success in gundog working test. I could always get her to the fall. All dogs have their strong points and their weaker points. My Chloe has by far the best nose of any of mine, and Amy probably the best all round working dog. This was Anna.

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I'll get on to your dogs this evening Gillian, probably one tonight and one tomorrow. :)
No rush at all. Thistle is keeping me busy and very much on my toes 🤣
 

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Hi Gillian, Both of your dogs are predominantly working lines

I’ll start with Hawksbeck Jemima. I’ll start with the dog side. A lot of Ireland on that side. Raughlin is a well known Irish kennel breeding some lovely working dogs. The affix belonging to Mr S Jennett. FT Ch Raughlin Greek was sold to Mr G McCutcheon. Baron I’ve already told you about. Ulstsre Oak was also Irish and both a UK and Irish Field Trials Champion. Theoweir Turramurra Teal was also Irish, being bred by Mr J Curtin and owned and trialed by Mr T Moran. Teal became both a UK and Irish Field Trials Champion. Another Irish and English Field Champion was Heatherbank Alex of Tasco. Heatherbank, Born 18/7/1987 was the affix of Mrs Wittington and Alex was brought by Alan Rountree (Tasco). Pocklea Remus is probably the best know working Labrador. Born in 1986 he was bred and owned by Dave Garbutt he won the IGL Retriever Championship in 1991 before enjoying a long stud life! FT Ch Swinbrook Twig was born in 1984, bred by Mr Mackinnon, owned by Ian Openshaw, better known for his spaniels. FT Ch Haaretor Mark of Drakeshead, born in 1983 was bred by Mrs Crowden and owned by John and Sandra Halstead. All these kennels, plus Glenbriar (Bobby Robertson) have been very influential in the world of working Labradors.

So on to the bitch side. This is predominantly UK dogs. The first 3 lines, with the exception of Riversway Bosun are unknown to me. Nothing unusual in that. With up to 45000 Labradors born every year there is no way anybody can know them all!! Riversway is the affix of Graham Roberts, has bred some lovely working Labradors over the years and also runs gundog training sessions. FT Ch Hatchfield Feargal, born march 1997. Bred by Di Harrison, I remember watching him, would have been in the early 2000’s. Lovely dog! FT CH Endacott Soames of Riversway, Graham Roberts big winner. Soames was bred by a friend of mine, Anne Courtier (Endacott.) It was one of Anne’s stud dogs who sired my Amy. One year Anne had the honour of qualifying Endacott Spindle for the same IGL Retriever Championship an Spindle’s brother, Endacott Store of Qualbrook and her son Soanes! I don’t remember any other time that happened! Sadly Anne lost her husband Mike a few years back and has now retired from breeding, so there will be no more Endacott dogs. FT Ch Kenue Fir of Leadburn, bred by Mr W Ferguson, he was brought by Billy Steel (Big Billy as opposed to his son, Little Billy)

So many good dogs in this pedigree, but two dogs on the 9th line need mentioning. The first was FT CH Holdgate Willie. Bred by Mrs Benson in 1969, apart from being a great worker, he was also a very good looking dog and apart from working breeders he was also in demand by show people wanting to put a bit of working blood into their line. The second dog is the opposite side of the coin. Many working people value a show dog who can work to a reasonably high standard, in order to improve on the appearance of their line, and here we have Ch Code of Conduct of Lawnwood. Lawnwood was the affix of George and Marjorie Satterthwaite, and like many of the old breeders also worked their show Labradors. It was 1971 when I met George. I was around the other side of the M25 at a show in an equestrian centre and George was judging the best in show. We sat together chatting while the group judging was in progress. I know it was 1971 because George was a boxing fan and earlier in the week Henry Cooper had lost to Joe Bugner, so obviously the talk revolved around boxing, George told me that he had the program for the Cassius Clay / Henry Cooper fight. Cassius Clay of course later became Mohammed Ali.
 

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Oh John, this is just fabulous! I have smiled the whole way through your post, reading more than once to take it all in! Thank you so much. You really are a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate you sharing such lovely details. Arya is a special girl. She came to us at 3 years old, a failed gundog allegedly and destined for breeding. With us she blossomed into the beautiful soul she is today. She's still timid but a million times better. She's terrified of a whistle. She was initially called Amber, but as we had sadly just lost our own Amber she became Arya. She is the lightest of all my bitches and a real stunner with an honest face. She'll be 11 next month. She's slower, but never been a speedy girl, but still enjoys 2 good walks a day and, like many, good. At 26kg she is still a fine figure of an older girl 😍
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Labradors are such a special breed, they love unconditionally.

Trouble is, working Labradors tend to come in two flavours, The hard chargers, loved by many trials people because they can be quite hard without putting them off, also they tend to be very fast, often very controlled by the handler to the extent it can be directed onto a sixpence, which looks stylish and always pleases the judge. And the softer, in many ways less flashy dog, often slower, but deliberate. Has a good nose, what we call a natural game finder. Highly valued by the shooting community, but less exciting to watch because it quietly gets on and does the job. As Anne Courtier said to me one day, "I dont want a dog I have to fight to get it to do what I want." And this is the way her Endacott dogs work. Trouble is, these dogs tend to be more sensitive, you cannot boss them around or they switch off. I personally know two of her dogs who went to people and turned out to be round pegs in square holes, never flourished the way they might have done in other hands. It looks like this was the problem with your dog. The Endacott in her pedigree came out. But as I said, Anne is no longer breeding so there will be know more. But Linda Partridge's Braidenvale dogs are very similar in character. Or maybe Henrik Vilendal's Strammers dogs. (A thought for the future. ;) )
 

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Hi John I gather that your main interest is in the Field Trial side of Labrador ownership, but you are knowledgeable, too, about others and wonder if you might be able to help. I was looking at Rossbank Otter Bell (it could be Rossbank Otter Belt - the typeface on an old Crufts Catalogue from the 1980s is not that clear. This is a dog born 18th February 1980 bred by Mr & Mrs J Stevens but owned, at the time of being shown at Crufts, by a Mrs L Park of Linlithgow. The sire is given as Rossbank Oriole and the Dam as Teviotcastle Countess of Rossbank. I am stuck with a problem on one of Oriole's forebears, namely Laird of Lairig Eala sired by Laird of Templerigg ex Honey of Templerigg (or on K9 data Honey of Templeriga!). Sire of Laird of Lairig Eala on K9 data is shown as Belmontville Majorson ... but in my database I only have Belmontville Major with KCSB1587AU and I have that book before me as I write to you with, of course, the sire and dam, date of birth, colour. I do not have Belmontville Majorson. Do you know if any dog of that name existed? Belmontville Major was born 19th January 1958 and could, conceivably, be a great great grandparent. No rush, as I'm wading through loads of papers that I need to get shut of before I shuffle off my mortal coil.

Pauline
 

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Labradors are such a special breed, they love unconditionally.

Trouble is, working Labradors tend to come in two flavours, The hard chargers, loved by many trials people because they can be quite hard without putting them off, also they tend to be very fast, often very controlled by the handler to the extent it can be directed onto a sixpence, which looks stylish and always pleases the judge. And the softer, in many ways less flashy dog, often slower, but deliberate. Has a good nose, what we call a natural game finder. Highly valued by the shooting community, but less exciting to watch because it quietly gets on and does the job. As Anne Courtier said to me one day, "I dont want a dog I have to fight to get it to do what I want." And this is the way her Endacott dogs work. Trouble is, these dogs tend to be more sensitive, you cannot boss them around or they switch off. I personally know two of her dogs who went to people and turned out to be round pegs in square holes, never flourished the way they might have done in other hands. It looks like this was the problem with your dog. The Endacott in her pedigree came out. But as I said, Anne is no longer breeding so there will be know more. But Linda Partridge's Braidenvale dogs are very similar in character. Or maybe Henrik Vilendal's Strammers dogs. (A thought for the future. ;) )
Very wise words John :) Arya has an incredible nose. She is so precise too. Walking three or more dogs to heel she has to be the one closest to my left heel. If one of the others changed position, without fail she hangs back and resets to the default. It is fascinating how many breeding traits from different strains are displayed. I'm proud to have Endacott in her, and saddened the line will discontinue. Our labs, very individual and unique, all do indeed love unconditionally 🥰
 

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I gather that your main interest is in the Field Trial side of Labrador ownership
Yes and no. I'm a dinosaur. I should have been born 30 years earlier, the days before working and show split to the extent they have now. My all time favourite Labrador was a show dog, Ch Candlemas Rookwood Silver Moonlight. Moo was born 27/3/1964. He was a local dog, owned by Mrs Kneller, he was shown all summer and picked up on Shardloes estate all winter. (He was the grandsire of my first Labrador.) I've always liked training, (does that make me a control freak?) and in the early days was involved in competitive obedience. As an obedience person I happened to say to my friend, who was into working gundogs that, "A good obedience handler could show those working gundog people a thing or two." And was told to put my money where my mouth was!

The Flatcoated Retriever Society decided to form regional training groups, and as the person running the local group was a member of my dog training club I was asked to become an instructor for them. After a while I decided that because I was always taking classes I could never get to work my own dogs, so I decided to join the United Retriever Club, so I could train my own dogs. We used a private section of Windsor Great Park. That really did not go to plan because within a year I was asked to take a class there. These days I dont take classes anymore. I do have friends who come out with me from time to time, but mostly I train on my own.

Showing has never been high on my agenda, but you cant always avoid it when you have friends who show. I've shown Labradors, Flatcoats, Pointers, Miniature Poodles and Japanese Spitz. (Never my own dogs) from Open Show level to both the breed ring and the Gamekeepers Ring at Crufts. I've never stewarded at Crufts, but I have stewarded at the LKA, the second biggest show in the country.

So yes, dogs have been very good to me, given me lots of fun. But sadly thats drawing to a close. Sooner or later the effects of anno domini get to all of us. I assist our gamekeeper through the year, which also has the advantage that it gives private ground to walk and train on, and I'll be picking up again this coming season, corvid19 allowing, but how much longer my hip will allow it is anybody's guess. I've already decided that Chloe will be my last dog. I've had a good innings, done a lot and had a lot of fun.

Below is Mandy, my first Labrador with her first cup.

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I was looking at Rossbank Otter Bell (it could be Rossbank Otter Belt
How interesting! There was two. Rossbank Otter Belt born 18/2/80, and Rossbank Otterbelt also born 18/2/80!! This is the KC's own database. The pedigree is the same for both, so my guess is somebody at the KC was at a party the night before entering the names! ;) For convenience we will call it Rossbank Otter Belt. Majorson does not have a studbook number. But the KC does list a Belmontville Major, but again no stud book number. Also there is no pedigree, no siblings and no progeny, so I cant help thinking this is another KC boo boo! The data entry clerk had a very good night the day before! ;)


This is as far as the KC can go. You see the KC started computerising in 1980, so that in the normal way is as far as their online database goes. But the KC is strange, nothing ties up, and I think stud book records go back further on their computer, because if a dog has a stud book number then the records go back much further.

As an afterthought, the pedigree of Teviotcastle Countess of Rossbank is horribly tight! CoI over 10 generations was 21.0173%

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