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Discussion Starter #1
I was researching about old breeders and I just wondered why some old breeders who influenced the breed in some way, some more than others, stopped breeding. I think that probably is because they died and had noone to continue they work, for example Poppleton, Cranspire, and others. Does Lawnwoods still breeding? Regards,

Labrazil.
 

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I don’t know the going of Mr Hunter, (Cranspire) although the affix is over 40 years old. Poppleton is a very old affix dating back as near as I can tell to 1910. Margery Satterthwaite is as far as I know still breeding Lawnwood Labradors although it's many years ago I last saw her husband.

Two more old Kennels no longer breeding are Mansergh and Brentchase (to my knowledge, although the sire of my Katy was Brentchase Elphreda.)

It's sad when we loose these old influential breeders but that’s life, and there are other good breeders coming along. But it's a bit like artists, it's easy to see the old masters after they've died but not whilst they are still alive!

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi John, what breeders (kennels) do you think are contributing very positively for the breed nowadays? Regards,


Labrazil.
 

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Arr now, there are quite a few people contributing positively to the breed today but naming them puts me in a bit of a spot! Plenty of the older breeders have, by consistently breeding very good dogs proved to be very good breeders. Whether they will be thought of in years to come as great breeder’s time will tell. Names who spring to mind are:- Balrion (Mrs Blunt), Cambremer (Mr Brabban), Mardas (Marlene and David Hepper) Rocheby (Mr and Mrs Hopkinson) Carpenny (Penny Carpanini).


Five who I think have already done enough to be listed as great are:- Warringah (Carol Coode), Cornlands (Peggy Rae), Lawnwood (Marjory Satterthwaite) Follytower (Mrs Woolley), Heatherbourne (Heather Wiles-Fone)

A couple of people around at the moment who have produced dogs I like but who at the moment do not have a "Track Record" so I hold a watching brief to see what they produce in the future are:- Lembas (Chris and Claire Mills) Saranden (Sarah and Dennis McLellan)

Two names missing are Sandylands and Poolstead. After the deaths of Gwen Broadley and Didi Hepworth it will take a time to see how there two famous Kennels fair under new ownership.

I stress that this is my list. There are plenty of other people breeding very good dogs but maybe not my type. There are also dogs which should be here but will have slipped my memory. (Put that down to old age!)

As to working lines. It's very difficult! Where does breeding finish and training start? It has often been said the John Halstead (Drakeshead) could make a Jack Russell into a Field Trials Champion so do I disregard his breeding and put it all down to his training? I love the breeding of the Willowyck dogs (Tess Lawrence and Alan Thornton) they seem to find stud dogs which others are not using! Another name to mention is Tasco (Alan Roundtree). Having seen so many Endacott dogs working I have to add Ann Courtier onto the list!

To the people I've forgotten, my apologies. I know there are many.

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The more I read about the breed's history, the more I see how remarkable was the dedication and persistence the breeders of the past had. It's really a fascinating subject, and I don't know if other breeds have all the records labrador has. I just wonder how they managed to continue with their kennels during WWII and some of them WWI too. Regards,

Labazil.
 

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You need to understand how pedigree dog keeping developed here in the UK Ronaldo. In those days there was no such thing as "Hobby breeders". By and large pedigree dogs were the province of the rich. "Ordinary people" if they had dogs at all had mongrels.


I really don't know when the first "Breed" as we know it was formed or which breed it was! The very first dog show though is quite well documented and took place in 1859. Really, the history of pedigree dogs could be said to start with the formation of the Kennel Club in 1873. The early days of the Labrador are rather vague and most is conjecture until you come to Colonel Peter Hawker who, in 1812 talks about a dog named the Labrador! A little later the third Earl of Malmesbury was breeding Labradors. In 1885 one of the Earl’s dogs, Juno had a puppy, Nell who was given to the sixth Earl of Buccleigh. Another of the old timers was Arthur Holland Hibbert (Later the third Viscount Knutsford) who in 1884 founded the Munden kennel with Munden Sybil. Others include the Duke and Duchess of Hamilton (Dungavel) and of course Mrs Quintin Dick (Later Countess Howe.) It was when Lorna, Countess Howe finally decided that she was unable to manage Labradors any more (in the early 1950) that her partner, Gwen Broadly left to found her own Sandylands Kennel. This gives a flavour as to who was breeding Labradors in those early days.

An interesting little aside, in an article in “The Field” magazine in 1908, Mr Holland Hibbert says:- “I am sorry Labradors do not “Fill the eye” of . . . . . . . There is always a certain prejudice against anything new, but I wonder why he thinks that because a breed has been much in evidence lately “that they will gradually recede to the dark corner whence they came”. Little did he know!

During the wars, and particularly the second world war, registrations sunk to such a low that many breeds were in danger. After the war, in order to strengthen and broaden the gene pool a “Pink Form” registration was allowed. If a dog looked like a breed it could be mated with a pedigree and if the puppies bred true to type they could be registered under the pink form agreement. If these puppies were then mated back to a pedigree dog then the resultant pups would then be considered as pedigrees. This helped no end in bringing fresh blood into the breeds. In 1951 there were 107 breeds recognised by the KC with Min Poodles the top breed with 3984 registrations! Second was Pembroke Corgis, third Alsatians (The name German Shepherd Dog had not yet been reverted to!) Fourth came Boxer’s. Labradors were right down in seventh place with 3859 registrations! A far cry from the 44000 in 2004!!!!!

I remember in the early 1950 seeing what registered in my brain as the first Labrador I ever saw! His name was Peter and he lived at the corner shop. Each day he would leave the shop, stand in the bus queue and catch the bus into the town and go for a wander into the park. After this it was back into the bus queue and back home again. It was a very different world in those days! I got my first dog in 1955. We had dogs when I was born but with food rationing still on we never replaced them until then. His dam was a wire haired Fox Terrier who belonged to a school friend, but I doubt she knew who the sire was! Monty looked rather like a Beagle and about that size. I remember being told, “Yes you can have a dog but he must be small, short haired and not noisy.” (No mention of breed in those days, the cost was out of reach!)

Monty lived to be 16 and during that time pedigree dogs snowballed! In our road there was a Dalmatian, a Boxer and an English Setter. After Monty came my first pedigree dog, a Dalmatian and on the 26 of March 1972 my love affair with Labradors really started with the birth of my Mandy. The rest is recent history.

This I hope gives you a feel for the way things were in those far off days. And also put’s to rest the lie that it was I who brought them into the country all those years ago!!!!!!!!! I was only a baby in 1812!

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi John, thanks for the explanation. Researching about Countess Howe after you mentioned her, I've just found this interesting photo and caption, that shows the aristocracy of the old times with labradors:



TRIALS. Important gundog trials are frequently held at Idsworth, Horndean, Hants, the Countess Howe's estate. The picture shows a number of Labrador Retrievers with their handlers, at the Labrador Retriever Club's Twenty-fifth Field Trials. Photo by Sport and General. Reprinted from Hutchinson's Dog Encyclopaedia (England, circa 1935).


I also read that labradors were known by the following names in the past, which I had no idea:

St. John's Dog
Lesser St. John's Dog
Newfoundland Dog
Lesser Newfoundland Dog
Little Newfoundlanders
Newfoundland Water Dog
Labrador Dogs
St. John's Labrador Dogs
Black Water Dog
Lesser Labrador
Smaller Labrador
English Retriever
English Labrador


Regarding: ..."I was only a baby in 1812!"..., I had to laugh!! :lol: :lol:

Regards, Labrazil.
 

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You are heading into the mists of time now Ronaldo. What is the truth?

It is documented that Colonel Hawker visited Newfoundland sometime around 1800 and whilst there he saw 2 dog breeds. A large “Shaggy” coated dog which was being used to pull sledges and a smaller short coated dog which was used by the fishermen to retrieve ropes and catch fish which were in danger of slipping off the hook. Supposedly he named the larger the “Newfoundland” and the smaller the “St’ John’s, or Labrador”. I say supposedly because recently there has come together a story which says that Portuguese settlers took a dog to Newfoundland which they called a “Labour dog” and the name was derived from there! There is also another story which says that the Labrador was actually a St. Hubert’s hound which originally came from England!!

Which is true? It’s very much a case of, “Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice!”

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi John, the foto and details were just to illustrate a little bit the history. I don't know in what order those names would be put, or even if the information proceed. Talking about the portuguese hand on it, there is a portuguese breed called Castro Laboreirto that resembles labradors in some way. Regards and see you all in three weeks time,


Labrazil.
 

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I am only just catching up on some of these posts. Brdget Docking (Ballyduff) is another breeder who has passed on but I think her daughter Sheleen Cuthbert has carried on the affix. I know Marjoried Satterthwaite has reired from Judging only last year, but I do not know whether she is still breeding. But of course Carol Coode started with Marjories line.
 

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I knew there were some I should have listed. We are lucky in our breed that we have, or have had, some wonderful breeders. Again, I know very little about the recent Ballyduff dogs but some of the old ones really stick in the mind, Obviously Marketeer, but one oldie which needs mentioning was Ballyduff Seaman way back in 1966. Influenced the breed in no small way.

Regards, John
 

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I am trying to put my thiking cap on again. There were the Ardmargha although they mainly decsended form Sandylands. Bradking,Rookwood and Candlemas.Also there were some Keysun dogs bred by Mrs Spencer but made up by the Burtons who have now retired to Spain. Then going back a bit more Holton Mr Gilliat. I won't go on otherwise I will get boring
 

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John
Just doing the ironing and thinking again. How could we forget Joan Macan and Timspring?
 

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Oh my word! Holton Baron! His decendants live on everywhere! Just a few kennels he’s behind:- Ardmargha, Ballyduff, Balrion, Bradking, Camremer, Carpenny, Charway, Cornlands, I wont go any further because you will have got the message about the show lines. But the interesting thing is what else? There he sits behind such illustrious working dogs as Aughacasla Sam Of Drakeshead, Craighorn Bracken, Endacott Shelf and Soames Of Riversway, the Willowyck dogs including Tangle and even the Irish working lines of Seanbaile and Tasco. Even my baby Amy has him nearly 30 generations back!

Yes, Joan Mcan should live on in the hearts of all Labrador people, through her books of hip scores produced each year in her honour.

Regards, John
 

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John you are like a walking encyclopedia regarding pedigrees. It takes me an age to think about all these dogs. I know we have a lot of new and up and coming breeders, but some of these people are legendary.
 

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Not me Meg. it's my silican friend! At my age I need to refresh my memory from time to time :wink:

Regards, John
 

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When you mentioned Holton, it tripped my memory, Meg. Baron was still appearing on the back of pedigrees when I came into the breed. I brought the book, "Labradors" by F Warner Hill. This book was published in 1966 and includes a photo of Baron and his pedigree. (The forward incidentally was written by Lorna, Countess of Howe who was at that time the chairman of the Labrador Retriever Club.)

He was a big solid black, very much in the mould of Bramshaw Bob. Certainly not Ruler of Blaircourt who's head always appeared "Over done" to my taste. Others must have liked him because he won 25cc's, a record at that time, BOB 19 times, 13 reserve cc's, was for two years Best Black at Crufts (Remember in those days yellows had their own breed standard.) He had a total of 89 firsts and 35 seconds at show including 4 successive BOB at the LKA and 4 certificates of merit in Field Trials! This was a dog never to be forgotten!

I was out walking with Anna this afternoon and got to thinking. Almost all modern kennels have Baron at the back but I doubt many of the breeders ever saw him! What a shame that is!

Regards, John
 

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I have been looking through Gary Johnsons book of Champions 1946 to 1990 last evening, and it is amazing looking at some of the old dogs. Poppleton is behind there in a number of dogs. :)
 

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What wonderful books the Gary Johnson/Isabella Kraft are! do you also have the Richard Edwards book, " The Show Labrador Retriever in Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1945-1995"? Ok, it's probably as heavy as the title but there is so much info in there about the lines which I think someone like you would find facinating. I know I did. He also has a list of Labrador titles, including some very old books which he has managed to obtain for sale.

Regards, John
 

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Yes John I have that but not to hand at the moment, as I loaned it and have not got it back. I have so many books some of them unfortunately packed away, I must do some sorting and get them out again. Regards Meg :cry: :cry:
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