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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My boy has been a stud dog for a number of years. Since the pandemic we’ve been doing insemination matings only to avoid prolonged contact etc. These work well and have only failed to produce pups on a couple of occasions.

We usually give a contract that states we don’t guarantee pups etc. And have never had this questioned. I’ve had people return for a second try and be willing to pay for the stud service again.

In summer a friend of a friend asked if they could use my dog, it was all last minute as their planned stud backed out, so I forgot to sort the contract (I know, I know!). They hadn’t had the bitch blood tested. Just told me when to turn up for insemination.

The bitch isn’t pregnant and they’re asking for a free return. After looking online it seems opinions are mixed. As it was an insemination we know for definite that sperm went in on 2 occasions. Some are saying it’s the bitch owners responsibility to make sure it’s the right time, others say yes free return. I want to be fair but the clinic is a 55 mile round trip that would have to be done twice so there’s also my time and petrol to consider.
Any thoughts?
 

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As you say, some do and some dont. Personally I've never been involved with AI, and the KC rules have changed since the days when I was involved with any mating making the conditions of AI easier to comply with. But for natural matings it's the bitch who goes to the dog, so there is no financial implications dog owner, so it's not quite the same thing. But of course, with no contract both sides could argue about what they expected, and the question is, how far are you prepared to argue? If it goes to law then both sides are going to end up out of pocket. Maybe a compromise is the way to go. Possibly a 50% stud fee?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As you say, some do and some dont. Personally I've never been involved with AI, and the KC rules have changed since the days when I was involved with any mating making the conditions of AI easier to comply with. But for natural matings it's the bitch who goes to the dog, so there is no financial implications dog owner, so it's not quite the same thing. But of course, with no contract both sides could argue about what they expected, and the question is, how far are you prepared to argue? If it goes to law then both sides are going to end up out of pocket. Maybe a compromise is the way to go. Possibly a 50% stud fee?
Thank you for your reply. I have offered a significantly reduced stud fee, which apparently wasn’t enough and they expected it free. With natural matings I have allowed people back, as you say there’s no cost to me that way, only time. But this would cost me in petrol. I’m just a little frustrated as at the time of their other stud pulling out they messed about for a few days before contacting me - I wonder if they missed her best days for getting caught to begin with.
 

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I think communication is the key here. Have you discussed the costs involved? If you have and the bitch owner is still insistent (I personally don’t think they have a case) then you need to weigh up any possible losses (friendships, reputation, is actually doing a freebie worth it in terms of these two things). Is there any way they could bring the bitch to you? The risks from Covid are lower (so the UK seems to be thinking), everyone appears to be vaccinated and if all parties wear adequate protection (face masks etc)? I think I’d say if they brought the bitch to me, they signed an agreement that this is a one time only thing, I’d do a freebie for thé saké of a quiet life.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for your reply. The bitch owner is wanting to do insemination again. I have explained that it is a 55 Mike round trip for me, that would need to be done twice so obviously incurs time and money for petrol on my side. I have asked for £100 which is 1/3 of his usual stud fee. Is that reasonable?
Usually all this is set out beforehand and I’ve never had anyone expect a free return before. Out of interest is that a standard thing? The other stud dog owners I know don’t offer this, as you can never guarantee puppies, you are paying for the stud service. I know my stud is fertile (as he has had 2 litters born in the last month) so on this occasion that fact that no pups resulted is surely down to the bitch and them not blood testing her etc.
 

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That's less than a pound a mile, which is very reasonable. In the days when I occasionally needed to use my own car travel to another firm I used to claim travelling expenses of £2-50 per mile, and that was in the 1980's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That's less than a pound a mile, which is very reasonable. In the days when I occasionally needed to use my own car travel to another firm I used to claim travelling expenses of £2-50 per mile, and that was in the 1980's.
Hmmm when you put it like that and with current petrol prices, I feel I have been more than reasonable. Though they are still angry that they’ve paid a stud fee and got no pups. Though I have tried explaining that there is never any certainties, even after this next mating (if it goes ahead) I cannot guarantee puppies!
 

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In the US, it is normal and customary to offer a repeat breeding; a typical contract is 0 - 2 pups nets another attempt. But, the stud fee is broken into parts; in example, there is a service fee that is NOT refundable which is the for the time that the Stud Owner puts in either in the first service alone or between two services. You are of course going to find other types of contracts, but that is the typical one that I've encountered.
 

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Things are slightly different in the UK LabradorLover8. Up until relatively recently the UK KC had strict rules on AI, refusing to register pups unless the bitch had already had a previous litter from natural insemination. Exemptions were made for overseas stud dogs where it was impractical to take the bitch to the dog. The thought was to eliminate the possibility of a bitch unable to conceive naturally being incorporated into the gene pool. (I think Bulldogs was the case in mind at the time.) You have to understand that the UK is a small island so there are not the problems of distance which there can be in the US. In those days, because it's normal for bitches to travel to the dog there was no cost implications to the stud dog owner so a free repeat service was very common. But AI has become a lot more common, with seamen straws often imported from both the EU and the US, and the KC moved with the time and relaxed the rules concerning AI. Top dogs, particularly on the working side are still siring pups long after they have died. One such, a winner of the International Gundog League Retriever Championship sired a litter only a few weeks ago even though he died over 5 years ago! But of course, there is a cost involved for stud dog owners with AI, making it justifiable for the stud dog owner to claim out of pocket expenses. But another development is progesterone testing. Although not 100% this has certainly reduced the chances of getting the timing wrong, so some stud dog owners will say, "If you dont bother to test and get the timing wrong then it's strictly down to you!" and will refuse a free repeat service.

I must admit, after sitting on a straw bale in the middle of the fens, during a particular long tie, in freezing fog on Christmas Eve one year, I have to say, AI has a lot going for it! 😁
 

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Things are slightly different in the UK LabradorLover8. Up until relatively recently the UK KC had strict rules on AI, refusing to register pups unless the bitch had already had a previous litter from natural insemination. Exemptions were made for overseas stud dogs where it was impractical to take the bitch to the dog. The thought was to eliminate the possibility of a bitch unable to conceive naturally being incorporated into the gene pool. (I think Bulldogs was the case in mind at the time.) You have to understand that the UK is a small island so there are not the problems of distance which there can be in the US. In those days, because it's normal for bitches to travel to the dog there was no cost implications to the stud dog owner so a free repeat service was very common. But AI has become a lot more common, with seamen straws often imported from both the EU and the US, and the KC moved with the time and relaxed the rules concerning AI. Top dogs, particularly on the working side are still siring pups long after they have died. One such, a winner of the International Gundog League Retriever Championship sired a litter only a few weeks ago even though he died over 5 years ago! But of course, there is a cost involved for stud dog owners with AI, making it justifiable for the stud dog owner to claim out of pocket expenses. But another development is progesterone testing. Although not 100% this has certainly reduced the chances of getting the timing wrong, so some stud dog owners will say, "If you dont bother to test and get the timing wrong then it's strictly down to you!" and will refuse a free repeat service.

I must admit, after sitting on a straw bale in the middle of the fens, during a particular long tie, in freezing fog on Christmas Eve one year, I have to say, AI has a lot going for it! 😁
Hi JohnW. - I'm the daughter of an English born Mother and an American Military service member - they met at the restaurant my grandparents ran in Hastings while my Dad was on leave and over from Germany! I spent my summers in Maidstone and a couple of years here and there living across the pond. In fact, as a dual citizen during the time when you had to choose one or the other, I spent my childhood believing I would choose my British citizenship over my US. Things changed having lived there at 16 years of age (in the mid 1970's) and I watched the struggles to find employment and continue schooling that my cousins and friends were having..I returned to the US at 17 and went to college here, married at 22 and life goes on! Now, that you've had my life story ....LOL

My parent's were breeders who brought the girls back to the U.S. and lots has changed here between now and then as well. AI is done more often than not when the bitch owner doesn't also have studs on site. Using frozen sperm of deceased dogs is a practice here but one that has had its issues as pups born often are carriers of many of the diseases we now can test.

One Breeder of Champions had a major setback when her entire kennel were carriers of either EIC or HNPK; starting over, she used a British Import's frozen sperm (a very well known Sire she herself had imported from the UK, whose name I won't share out of respect for the anguish of the Breeder) and both of the offspring she kept were carriers of these (and one other) disease. It was devastating and made a lot of breeders think more deeply about using the frozen sperm of dogs whose lives were lived before genetic testing became so easy to get.
 

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So interesting! I live in High Wycombe, which had a strong American presence at the US Airforce base at Daws Hill in the 1950/80's cold war era. It was quite a big employer in those days, but was decommissioned a few years back. It had a big underground network, was used for plotting the tracks of both incoming and outgoing missiles. Occasionally the underground complex is opened up got tours. RAF Daws Hill - Wikipedia

The DNA tests have helped so much to eliminate several of the hereditary diseases. PRA, CNM, EIC, HNPK and SD2 should never be seen these days. But of course there are still people ignoring the tests
 

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So interesting! I live in High Wycombe, which had a strong American presence at the US Airforce base at Daws Hill in the 1950/80's cold war era. It was quite a big employer in those days, but was decommissioned a few years back. It had a big underground network, was used for plotting the tracks of both incoming and outgoing missiles. Occasionally the underground complex is opened up got tours. RAF Daws Hill - Wikipedia

The DNA tests have helped so much to eliminate several of the hereditary diseases. PRA, CNM, EIC, HNPK and SD2 should never be seen these days. But of course there are still people ignoring the tests
Yes, it is unfortunate here that so many of the larger well known Breeders dragged their feet at any test other than for dysplasia. The Breeder I spoke of refused to accept that she was selling EIC affected dogs until nearly every dog in her kennel was a carrier or affected - one of mine is a descendant and is an HNPK carrier which is also believed to have come from her kennel. It destroyed her business and as I said, when she tried to start over, it was learned that the genes came from her most famous of imported Studs. It was heartbreaking for her.

But, things have changed now. Nearly every Breeder of Champions is testing and although all still have some carriers, it is known how to breed it out in the next generation (offspring breeding potentials) and hope that soon, there will be no more carriers in the breeding world. Far more likely we can defeat the genetic form of these diseases than to ever completely eliminate dysplasia which is triggered in most cases by environment.
 

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and hope that soon, there will be no more carriers in the breeding world.
Sadly that wont happen here. There are far too many puppy farms breeding with no thoughts of health, and equally sadly far too many people looking to buy them and save a few pounds, not realising that the possibility is that it will come back to haunt them later. It's never a good idea to go looking for a bargain when thinking about a puppy.
 

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Sadly that wont happen here. There are far too many puppy farms breeding with no thoughts of health, and equally sadly far too many people looking to buy them and save a few pounds, not realising that the possibility is that it will come back to haunt them later. It's never a good idea to go looking for a bargain when thinking about a puppy.
We still have a fair bunch of them as well. But, the Pet Laws are making it more difficult for them to operate which is a good thing.
 

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Unfortunately it's the puppy buying public who drive the demand for pups, and they most often don't worry or even care about where their puppy came from. A lot of people think they've bought from a reputable breeder when sadly they haven't, but then until they encounter a problem with their puppy/dog many will feel it's worth the gamble and come out with the old excuses that they don't want a show/FT CH they 'just' want a pet, as if a pet is an inferior product. And then you get those who should know better still allowing their stud dogs to cover bitches without all the health tests in place, and I'm not talking about relying on the dog being DNA tested but not having full tests in place on both. Sadly until the public change their puppy buying habits then it will just continue on, with pups being bred with very little or no thought except the profit they will bring.
 

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Then of course there is the pet person who thinks it would be nice for their dog to have a litter. The only planning which goes into it is to use the dog who lives just down the road. No thoughts of matching pedigrees, no knowledge of what the pedigree says, no knowledge of health tests, but of course plenty of knowledge of what pups are selling for.
 

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Then of course there is the pet person who thinks it would be nice for their dog to have a litter. The only planning which goes into it is to use the dog who lives just down the road. No thoughts of matching pedigrees, no knowledge of what the pedigree says, no knowledge of health tests, but of course plenty of knowledge of what pups are selling for.
The pandemic lock downs brought out a lot of those folks unfortunately.
 
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