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Hi

As you may know I have a litter of puppies and was sat wondering there is probably a chance out of 9 of them 1 may develop HD even though both parents have good scores we all know that these things still happen.

What do you do as a breeder?

Would you just think I did my bit and tried my best but thats life?
Use a different stud dog?
Not breed from the bitch again?
Or something I haven't thought of

Thanks to anyone who replies :)
 

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I spoke to my breeder about Ruby who has hip and elbow dysplasia despite parents being scored well.

He is NOT breeding those two together again which is right IMHO
 

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As a breeder, would you take the pup back if he/she developed HD and the new owner didn't want him?
What if that pup wasn't insured?
Would you let him have a hip replacement if needed even if it cost several thousand pounds?

Good luck and I really hope none of the pups develop any problems but if you did all the health testing before breeding then you know you've done your very best for the litter
 

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I think you are over estimating the chance of HD being in your litter with 1 in 9. That is very high odds and chances are if you bred from two low scoring dogs there won't be HD of any noticeable degree. I don't think the folks who emphasise that HD CAN appear from low scoring dogs even would put such odds against it..... but I know what you mean for the sake of debate....

Personally, it would depend on a lot of grey factors as to my path forward.

I would be inclined, if one case, very severe, in a FIRST litter from the bitch just to use a dog from different lines next time incase the mating just didn't 'click'.

However if the bitch was on her second or third litter with nothing previously untoward i would think it was just plain bad luck and possibly start considering environmental factors, and probably not change any plans I had for her even if it happened to be the same mate.

You do have to be realistic when you have done all you can by using the schemes and then taking notice of the results and mating accordingly and sensibly. You can sympathise with the owner but you can't always throw your hands to the heavens and take drastic action. Even if they think you should.

The case above of both severe HD AND ED from the previous poster however would prompt me to look into things a lot more deeply. That is not just bad luck, there is something really disturbing going on there.
Di
 

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As someone who has bred a litter, if that did happen to me and one of Milly's pups had HD I would offer to take the pup back. I wouldn't pay for any operations though (unless they gave the pup back). There has to come a time when the owner takes responsibility for their dog. The first year of the dogs life is important and the owner has a responsibility to protect their dog the best they can.

Having done all we possibly could to stop this happening it would put me off breeding altogether and I wouldn't breed again.
 

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You can sympathise with the owner but you can't always throw your hands to the heavens and take drastic action. Even if they think you should.
Just to say we never asked the breeder for anything, I'm just interested in what different breeders would do.



The case above of both severe HD AND ED from the previous poster however would prompt me to look into things a lot more deeply. That is not just bad luck, there is something really disturbing going on there
How do you mean?
 
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Diana said:
The case above of both severe HD AND ED from the previous poster however would prompt me to look into things a lot more deeply. That is not just bad luck, there is something really disturbing going on there.
Do you think, Di?

When I first had problems with Mojo's elbows, I was told she would probably have dodgy hips too, as many apparently are affected in some degree all round. I had her hips x-rayed at the same time as her elbows and all plates were sent to Noel Fitzpatrick, who thankfully confirmed that her hips were fine (my vet had thought they were but wanted to check). I did however get the impression that 1 dodgy leg often meant 4 dodgy legs and we were just lucky.
 

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_Jules_ said:
I did however get the impression that 1 dodgy leg often meant 4 dodgy legs and we were just lucky.
I can remember having a conversation with Wendy on this when Charlie initially had problems with his hips - I know at that point his elbows were examined and found to be fine - but it does now appear there is scope for later onset ED.

On top of this, I would imagine, that because Charlie's hips were so severe, he would have thrown his body weight forward which would go some way to explain why he is so muscular on the front - this in turn in a relatively young dog could well have a negative impact on the once OK elbows, particularly as it is clear he was pre-disposed to problems which could be through his breeding, or the way the breeder (in the LOOSEST sense of the word) weaned the pups :( It doesn't make Wendy feel any better - but I suspect the latter problems with his elbows were just 'one of those things' that may well not have happened had his hips been OK.

You only have to look at how Labs throw themselves around to see how much of a battering their elbows take; it is likely on a healthy dog it shouldn't cause any major issues, but if a dog is genetically predisposed to OCD related conditions (whether through my belief of a rogue gene or otherwise) - then is is probably the dog would show problems in that area at some point whether it 6 months, 2 years or even older :(
 

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Funnily enough just answered your PM before looking at the thread Wendy, and what Sue says about counterbalancing sometimes/often causing front end lamenesss I would wholey agree with as I replied to you in the PM.

SEVERE and proven HD and ED in the same dog I would (as I said in my Pm too) view rather more seriously I have to say, than one case of HD in a litter with other reported healthy litter mates.

From my own experience of ED, you more rarely tend to get one pup in a litter with it than HD. For whatever reason. Possibly, thinking aloud here, the environmental wear and tear on the elbows, as Sue also mentions, being so much greater than on the hip joints tends to put a flag up the flappole without fail if there is a genetic weakness there than hips weakened by HD. hence more ED cases showing more clearer than HD cases... but anyway ;-) Its a nightmare area to try and identify and be specific about.

Just in general, in answer to the general original question, i would be more concerned with a dog affected front and back - personally speaking - for right or for wrong. It wouldn't be a reflection on how sad I felt for an owner if their dog was affected EITHER end - just for my own breeding plans, I would sit up and take more notice in terms of breeding plans, for want of a better way to put it.
Di
 

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" Having done all we possibly could to stop this happening it would put me off breeding altogether and I wouldn't breed again. "


... am i reading you wrong Millysdad?... that if you had bred an unfortunate case of a joint problem in your litter last year, although you did everything you could to prevent it, you wouldn't breed again because it would put you off? Or did I read that wrongly or did you miss out a 'wouldn't' ??

Di
 

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No you read me right. I wouldn't breed again.

I know it comes across as a cop out but its something that I am sure would put me off. I know it wouldn't be our fault, but I would feel so guilty.
 

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As Sue said, Charlie had his elbows xrayed at the same time as his hips and they were ok (the specialist always xrays both as he said he regularly sees dogs with HD who also have elbow probs too). At 11 months old nothing showed up on Charlie's elbow xrays.

When Charlie started being lame in his front right leg he was just over 2 years old. The specialist didn't xray then but did an arthroscopy as not all joint problems show up on xray. He had a piece of floating cartlidge removed from his right elbow and nothing was found wrong with his left elbow.

Was this problem there when he was xrayed or was it caused by carrying his weight on his front? He certainly wasn't over exercised, in fact he spent most of the first 2 years of his life on very restricted exercise due to diagnosis of HD at 5 months and then a double THR. He has also never been allowed upstairs and still won't use them now.
 

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Thats a shame Millys dad... I always feel very uncomfortable when people say they feel *guilty* when these things happen. I think the feelings of *guilt* should be left for those who do nothing to even try and prevent these things occuring. Sad, I completely understand, and maybe torn on how to tackle the situation, but I suppose those who SHOULD fel *guilt* don't... like anything in life, the good guys care too much even when they shouldn't, the bad guys don't care at all even when they should!

Di
 

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I must admit I agree with Di, Millys Dad.

As a responsible breeder you take all the precautions you can when planning a mating, to ensure a healthy litter. If something happens 12 months, or further down the line, that could have been caused by actions beyond your control, how does "guilt" come into the equation.

What else could you have done?

Andrew
 

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I, too, agree with Di but you cant help how you feel.

Just call me stupid! I know I am.

We are not what I would call proper full time breeders anyway, we bred with Milly and may do so again but that will be it. What we did was accept that if we did breed then we did it the best and proper way we could possibly do it.

You have to be a hard nut to be a proper full time breeder in my book and I tip my hat to all the breeders, like Di, who do it well and lead by example.
 

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Millys_dad said:
We are not what I would call proper full time breeders anyway, we bred with Milly and may do so again but that will be it.
If you breed, you are a breeder - in the 'responsible world' (for want of a better word) - there aren't many what I would call full time breeders. I have roughly one litter a year - but I am a breeder all the time, not just when I am planning / have a litter.

Breeding is a long term strategy to hone and improve your lines in ways pleasing to you while bearing in mind temperament, health and conformation for the purpose you want the dogs (usually showing and / or working) - IMO - despite their different frame sizes, both show and working are capable of meeting the breed standard.

To be a 'full-time' breeder, you would be looking at churning out at least 8 litters a year (and if you do that responsibly, it wouldn't give you a significant income) - and there ain't that many of even the big show breeders producing on that scale.
 

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sue51 said:
Millys_dad said:
We are not what I would call proper full time breeders anyway, we bred with Milly and may do so again but that will be it.
If you breed, you are a breeder - in the 'responsible world' (for want of a better word) - there aren't many what I would call full time breeders. I have roughly one litter a year - but I am a breeder all the time, not just when I am planning / have a litter.

Breeding is a long term strategy to hone and improve your lines in ways pleasing to you while bearing in mind temperament, health and conformation for the purpose you want the dogs (usually showing and / or working) - IMO - despite their different frame sizes, both show and working are capable of meeting the breed standard.
Very well put Sue, I agree entirely with you, and may I say, what an eloquent way to sum up why some of us choose to breed.

Andrew
 

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I am not a full time breeder Millysdad by any means, I just have a litter or two a year usually, the rest of the year I'm a timber marketing manager not a professional dog breeder, but with a life that revolves around dogs and dog activities, but I understand the distinction you are making and take it as a compliament ;-)

Wendy, just to touch on things from your post, its impossible I think for any of us to make judgements or even hazard guesses on individual cases like Poor Charlies, so who knows where the ED came from. Poor Charlie! Just to say pucblically, as I did privately, I honestly was just answering the original question, no blame or judgement was being placed on anyone with any dog. Just my answer to the 'theoretical' question. We all admire the endless trauma you have had with Charlie. I know you asked nothing of his breeders... and I have to say many are wonderful like you in these circumstances.

Sadly (Understandably to a certain extent) many are not and want something or someone to *blame* even many months down the line and just won't accept that sometimes, nature is just really, ever so, cruel.

Di
 

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Thank you for your kind words - we only did what the majority of decent owners would do - with a little help from M&S of course (now to the tune of circa £15k 8O 8O 8O )

It really is a natural feeling to want to find a reason or blame someone, be it yourself, the breeder, God or next door's cousins husband!!! Anyone really!!! For us we will never find out the real reason. Was it poor breeding? Was it trauma at birth? Was it us????? (I hand on heart really don't think it was though). I really would love to know.
 

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Wendy it will comfort you not at all, BUT most people who breed have also bought in (or kept from their own breeding) a dog or bitch they have grown to care about or love and it has developed one of these problems if they have been going at it for a few years.

I promise most breeders know where you are coming from with the feelings that run through you, but just have first hand knowledge of how it feels to be on the recieving end of that grief too, so tend to fight the desire to need someone to blame just a bit harder.

What i'm saying is that its not just pet owners who get hit in the guts with these things, breeders do too so they often DO know how you feel.

Di
 
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