Labradors Forums banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
And I'm talking about methods here?

On the back of Zensmum's post about Gundog Trainers, I actually found Working Trials methods more difficult with the way they were trained for Labradors specifically, and no, it wasn't because the people I trained with weren't aware of breed specifics. There were accounts of people training to win by literally starving their dogs, along with the use of the old favouite shock collar, which, although I don't agree with as a use to teach general training, I did see work with dogs that had specific problems and agree, not nice, but worked, and those dogs had a better life (and in some cases 'a life' ) because of it.

So, I stopped working trials training with Tau, because I found it was contrary to her natural ability and I would have had to be 'hard' on her to make her compete. She is much easier with the gundog stuff and I hope that in the future we'll compete at a low level, but just how pushy an owner would you be with your beloved Lab??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,127 Posts
I was talking about this with my trainer and the other people in my training class on Sunday. Personally, I wouldn't go very far at all. Anything that involved stepping outside my 'comfort zone', damaged my relationship with my dog, or made me or my dog unhappy (I don't want my dog to cower or grovel in training) would be too far. If I can't teach the dog to do something in a way that is pleasurable for us both, then I'd rather not teach it.

Training is a hobby, whereas my dogs are family. I would verbally chastise a dog if it obviously disobeyed a command that I knew for sure that it understood, but I don't want to scruff it, lift it up off the ground, drag it, smack it, shake it or kick it, scream in it's face, blow my whistle in it's face etc.

If I ever have over-stepped my line, I've felt totally miserable and useless as a trainer.

I don't doubt that other dogs have had harsher treatment than mine and are still very happy and fulfilled working dogs who love to work. But it's just not the way I do things. I am a very unconvincing disciplinarian!

Becs and The Gang
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,666 Posts
I agree here. To stifle a dogs natural ability can make for a difficult relationship between owner and dog, however with Jasper he needs a firmer hand than I provide so he works very differently with my trainer who is firmer than me.

I do not agree with some methods that I have heard of; Becs I've never heard of blowing a whistle on a dogs face!!! 8O how to put a dog off coming back to you on the whistle :roll: but a firm take on the reins can do wonders. A little trick that was taught to me at a lesson was with the slip lead 3 little jerks on the lead (gently but firmly) if dog is away with the fairies (before giving a command) - not yanking it around - just gets thier attention and gradually the jerks become less and less until they are no longer needed. I also used my 'watch' command from obedience training when Jasper was not jumping around wanting to chase dummies but when he was being 'a puppy' this little method worked for us. IF however it had been suggested to me to do the whistle blowing or anything more than my growly voice when telling Jasper off I would've certainly walked away.

I do recall being told (when Jasper wasn't even bought yet and I asked about discipline methods in Field Training) I could 'jerk puppies ear until he yelped' to get him to behave 8O 8O 8O when I queried about the fact that I didn't want to be done by the RSPCA for animal cruelty if seen doing this (hmmm think NOT) in the park I was told "just say you stepped on puppies paw" 8O 8O needless to say we never went to that trainer after hearing that!!


Emma
XXX
 
G

·
I want my dogs to be my Besty Mates, my partners, not my servants. I want them to want to please me, not only do my bidding because they are afraid of the reprisals if they don't. But then I'm not very competitive, so I don't have that desire to achieve results at ANY price, whereas that is ALL that matters to some people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
674 Posts
I was hoping that with the new interest in tracking dogs that is emerging in this country, would come a new and more dog friendly way of training. However already some owners are using force and rather draconian methods to make their dogs the best at tracking. How sad because this is one discipline that requires the dog's full support and willingness to want to track. So what will happen is the dogs will be 'Blunted' by its owners inability to train and work with the dog and in the end it will be the dog that suffers.

Some people are disgraceful and should not be allowed to keep animals full stop. :evil:


I had a track laid for me the other day and nearly 24 hours later I was asked if my dog would like to find and trail. I waited until my friend was out the way and put my dog on the trail to see if she could find it. She did but struggled and soon lost interest. I later found out that my so called friend had laid the trail and then put his dog on it 4 hours later, in doing so it was impossible for my dog to make sense of it 20 hours later, this he knew! 8O

Someone else would of blamed their dog and may of acted unkindly to it not finding the trail. Already the cycle of greed, envy and one up manship has started and it will blight tracking as it has in some cases other working dog sports.

A great shame. :?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
ot
Tobias said:
, in doing so it was impossible for my dog to make sense of it 20 hours later, this he knew! 8O

:?
why, we have dogs here who does it ot

the other thing...
i think with every dog you reach to a point of correction.
and sometimes it is better to do it once and clear


what a lot of people do is being loud, and hard all the time...
so the dogs got used to, and for the correction you have to be louder and harder.
i am not a person who throws cotton balls :wink:

but the "newest" thing i personnally saw a while ago, in germany they call it "galgen"
people lift up their dogs on the moxon all four legs away from the floor.

interessting :roll: it was a trialing person (not a good one)
but it was not at a working situation, but jumping out of the car.....
it was really disgusting

so i think it is not the working test field trial sport...
but just certain kind of people......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,336 Posts
i would travel some distance for GOOD training

certainly with working trials - if you have the access to the jumps, maybe see if a couple of friends can get together to help with track laying etc.

there are plenty of people who use good positive methods for w/trials training and the exercises done positively should be rewarding for the dogs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,710 Posts
Tarrimor , 8O ,
"there were accounts of people training to win by literally starving their dogs , along with the use of the old favorite shock collar "

I am speechless :!: .

We would never ever do either of these dreadful things .

We train motivationally and are very , very against any forms of harsh treatment . That does not mean to say that I am against using the odd expletive when things are not going right but that is as far as it goes.

I cannot imagine how anyone would think that they would gain an advantage from starving their dog 8O or for using a shock collar. :( .

I just want to point out that working trials people on the whole are keen to use motivation and frown upon harsh handling just as the majority of good gundog/ agility / obedience and working dog handlers do.

Harsh handling is not productive and those that get the best results are often those that are enlightened to the non violent methods :) .

We must have been doing something right because Shadow won a reserve TDex ticket ( nearly 2 as he was knocked out to third on a run off :( ) and was as happy on the day he retired as he came off the control field at the age of 9.5 as he was when we first started out . His sister also was happliy working TDex too .

I think that my dogs happiness comes before my own and trials is entertainment , it is no the be all and end all .


If there is any form of harsh handling at a working trial it would mean a disqualification and it would be reported to the KC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have to say, where I trained regularly for working trials they were pretty good and helped a lot of owners with dogs that had quite severe aggression/fear problems and got them focused on working trials, although I still didn't want to make Tau do something she obviously wasn't enjoying, and that was not for want of trying to find different ways of getting her to enjoy it. It was a minority that spoilt it for me, and I just didn't want to take part. I love doing stuff with my dogs, and anyone who saw Indie on the fun Gundog Day will vouch for her enthusiasm (inbetween snoring sessions that is :lol: :lol: :lol: ).

I think there are, as people have said, good and bad in all types of working/competition. I much prefer positive training methods, although I agree that there is definitely a place for appropriate correction.

Thankfully I've never met anyone who goes to the lengths of starving their dogs to get them to comply, I've no idea if the account is true or not, but several people seemed to know of at least one person who did this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,710 Posts
I think that it is a mis guided training method :roll: .

A hungery dog will have problems concerntrating so is unlikely to be able to work at it's optimum .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
i was working with a friend and her dogs with a prey dummy....
it looks like a normal dummy, but it is food inside....
to motivate the dog more...
and to show the dog, that a dummy is something value to bring home

but of course it works only if the dog is hungry enough...
by the time you use normal dummys and still give them food out of the prey dummy after the retrieve... and later just out of your jacket

and i think it is quite a soft methode to convince a dog to retrieve....
it gives them a sense....

:wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,716 Posts
I only like happy dogs. So 'how far we go', depends on the dog. It's best I think to set yourself small goals, though not without thinking big and dream (no, that would be a shame not to), and to cherish every achievement. However big or small. If Bert, for example, picks up a pheasant that has near enough dropped from the sky onto his head and he is hungry anyways, then I am over the moon; if Wylye sits still for 5 seconds, then likewise; and if Barney still wags his tail every morning and say's "lets go tend those pheasants Mum, forget breakfast", and does so with enthusiasm and such dependability I could almost weep, then that too means the world to me. Anything extra is a bonus. If my dogs end up saying "more, more, more" then I'll do all I can to come along for the ride and enjoy it with them. If not I will continue to cherish them for the wonderful companions they are :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,127 Posts
What a lovely post Helen, and I agree 100% with what you have said. In my day-dreams my dogs might be winning every award going and saving children from disused mine-shafts, but in reality I still get choked up when I watch how Zorro retrieves a dummy from the pond with his new-found confidence, or see Mouse getting all excited when I fetch my training bag.

I wonder if, when folk hit the big-time with their dogs, they stop appreciating the tiny achievements, or if they still get the same thrill each time the dog does something new with enthusiasm?

Becs and The Gang
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top