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Discussion Starter #1
hi all
just a question on this topic.

we are hoping to put a deposit down on our choc lab this weekend providing everything checks out with breeder. i have read into hip dysplasia and wanting to know what the percentage is of a lab getting this condition coming from a very good hip scoring father? (been told the father is 2 and 3 hip scored)was told by the breeder this is a really good score.as we know this is a problem for the labs, is looking for the best hip score the best way of trying to elimanate this problem or can you still get a pup that will devolop this problem as he gets older?

also will the breeder have a certificate to prove this hip score?
 

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Hi Gordon,

We put our deposit down on our puppy last Friday. I found speaking to the local vet a great help in trying to understanding the problem and how to interpret the scores. Apparently the breed average hip score is 16, eg. 8/8, 4/12, etc etc. But 10 in a single hip is considered high. According to the vet the scoring's a good indication of perhaps future problems but he has known dogs with very good scores develop problems and vice versa. One factor not hereditary he mentioned was the floor surface they are brought up on, slippery floor surfaces not helping.

Anyway, hope everything goes well at the weekend.
 

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hi chocie :wink:

thanks for the info :wink: sounds like no matter how carefull you are with your lab, or a very good hip score they could still suffer with this problem. sounds like your vet has giving you good advice, think i will be getting some rugs for the wooden floors and taking him for walks on the grass 8O

will let you know how i get on at the weekend :wink:

gordon and suz :wink:
 

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Hi Gordon

Please see my trauma at the moment - 'Molly's problem', we went to see her breeder and both her parents have good hip scores, our vet said that it could just be 1 in the litter that turns out to have bad hips, and it can run in a line from way back.

Some practical things to do to reduce it as well as mats, etc, is not to over exercise in 1st year (really hard as they have so much energy), and feed them the correct food. One good exercise which labs love is swimming - it's good for their joints and keeps the muscle tone and also wears them out - which is good! Listen out for clicking hips and watch to see if they have any difficulty in standing up - if so get them to the vets for an x-ray. Make sure that they don't put too much weight on as it can put stress on the joints.

I would not want anyone to go through what we've gone through, although Molly is making a good recovery - we still have to go and see the specialist to see if there is anything that can be done surgically for her - which fingers crossed there will be - but it's been very traumatic and we're still not out of the woods yet.

I hope it all goes well. Jill
 

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I would not want anyone to go through what we've gone through, although Molly is making a good recovery - we still have to go and see the specialist to see if there is anything that can be done surgically for her - which fingers crossed there will be - but it's been very traumatic and we're still not out of the woods yet.
Hi Jill,

Have been thinking alot about Molly lately, how is she?

I'm glad to hear that she is making a good recovery, i hope all goes well for her when she sees the specialist.

Will be thinking of you both,

Bradleysmum
 

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As has already been said, there are no guarantees, but there are many things you can do to try and stack the odds in your favour.
In response to your post, sire’s score sounds good what are the dams’ scores? I would also look at hip scores a few generations back. A good breeder would not only hip score their own bitch and expect the stud to be hip scored, they will also have done some research on the scores of other offspring of their chosen stud, and grandparents etc. And yes, the breeder will have a certificate, they should also have a current eye certificate (eyes should be tested annually) and not so common, but preferable and elbow score (0). (This will also be noted on the pup’s kc registration document). There’s a lot of info about HD on the links below if you’re interested.
Hip scoring parents has already been mentioned. Current breed average is 15 (a combined score of the two hips) and no dog should be bred from with a higher than average score. In brief, best hip score 0/0 worst 53/53. The hips are scored on 9 different points and scored 0 – 6. A good explanation is here http://www.thedogscene.co.uk/articles/health/hdscore.htm

The other environmental factors are nutrition and exercise.
The bones are soft until the pup is fully grown (1 year – 18 months) so this is the time to take great care.
Ensure good quality food, but be keep them on the lean side. Avoid rapid growth.
Be careful not to over exercise – a good guide is 5 minutes per month of age. Eg at four months no more than 20 minutes exercise. Mental exercise is just as tiring as physical exercise, if not more so.
Restrict play if you have an older dog – can put a lot of strain on pups hips. Also take care if walking with older dog - there is an increased risk of overexercise as pup will try to keep up.
Do not allow pup go up and down stairs until 1 year – 18 months.

HTH

http://www.atlanticstates.org/dysplasa.htm
http://www.news.cornell.edu/science/July96/dysplasia.hrs.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/medical-info/part2/
http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_hipdysplasia.htm
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1569&articleid=444
 

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Discussion Starter #7
hi jill :wink:

hope molly gets better soon. it must be awfull thing to go through even when you do everything to prevent this from happening.
keep us informed jill :wink:

thanks for your info lablover :wink:
have just found out today that the dam has not been hip scored could this be a problem? as the dad is 2/3 scored. reason being that her family owns the brother and his hip score is 6/6. This is the second litter that the mother has had reason been that the first litter were so healthy (big boned and bournville brown in colour) the breeder decieded to use the same stud dog again.

the breeder has the certificates for the eye score and hip score from the stud and kc paperwork which i will see on sat. also both parents will be there for me to see.

you mention about diet which is a must for the labs, but you say "avoid rapid growth"? what do you mean by this lab? and how do you avoid rapid growth?

thank you for the links lab :wink: very good info
 

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Hi Gordon
Oh dear, I’m beginning to sound like a real killjoy, but my advice is don’t go to see them – the problem is that once you see them you won’t be able to resist them, and to me there are huge warning bells with this breeder.

There is absolutely no excuse for not hip scoring and eye testing the dam regardless that a litter brother scored 6/6. How does this breeder know the first litter is so healthy? How old are they now? Have they all been hip scored and eye tested? These diseases may not show up for years. It sounds like they either know no better (in which case I would question that they knew enough about the breed to be breeding) or they are making excuses and hoping that you know no better – and with many potential buyers they will probably get away with it.
I’ll put it another way. If you were to breed would you really risk the heartbreak and suffering of passing on a potentially crippling and painful disease to the pups you've bred for the sake of £150 - £200 to have their hips scored and would you take the risk of passing on the eye disorders labs commonly suffer from for the sake of a £30 eye test?
I can’t help wondering about the stud owner too. He may have had his dog health tested, but no reputable stud owner would allow a mating unless the bitch had passed all the relevant health tests too. Still, he won’t be the first stud owner for whom the stud fee is too much of a temptation.
You say the stud dog will be there. Do they own both bitch and dog or is the dog visiting? On both counts I would be wonder why.

One last thing – and this applies to the UK as I don’t know the situation in the US. Until recently chocolate or liver Labradors were very much a minority colour. Their increasing popularity has led to an explosion in their numbers and in turn, a lot of indiscriminate breeding as many breeders try to cash in on the current trend. Labdad has written some excellent posts regarding finding a good breeder, but for anyone looking for a chocolate I’d say – be doubly careful.

A low protein diet (low calorific intake) is supposed to slow bone growth, allowing muscle development to catch up, so putting less stress on the joints particularly during the main growth period up to 6 months. There’s some interesting info in this link.
http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.htmlHTH
 

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Look at the bloodlines. Ask questions about the parents and the grand parents as well as any other pups that have been produced.

The parents should have been screened for all of the genetic problems. While this is no guarentee, the risk is less. Having only one of the parents screened does not give enough data.

I agree with lablover. Don't go see the pups until you have received satisfactory answers to all of your questions. Once you have seen the pups you will be hooked. A Labrador puppy can be a fifteen year commitment. Sure, if the puppy gets sick the breeder may replace the puppy but my guess is you will not return the pup and then you will be caring for a sick dog for fifteen years. Unless the illness takes them sooner.

It is still a buyer beware market. Do you homework. Research. Ask around. Know what to avoid and what to look for. You are not buying an automoble, you are adopting a soul. Take your time. Make informed decisions.

HTH
 

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Discussion Starter #10
thanks for the info labdad and lablove :wink:

i have another breeder to phone today about a chocalate lab, only thing that made me want to see the one where the mother is not hip scored is that i was told you will only find the best breeders on the kc register which is were i found this breeder. also the breeder is a dedicated member of the chocolate lab forums.
http://www.chocolate-labradors.org.uk/flash.html

just come of nightshift so will do some more investagating later today and will let you know how i get on :wink:
 

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Hi Gordon
Over here in the 'States KC registration is like buying a ticket. Anybody can register a litter. Very few hoops. Great Britain may be very different.

I would look for a breeder that actively shows or trials their dogs. If their dogs do stuff-agility-conformation-obedience-hunt trials then the dogs will show their mettle and be judged against the breed standard.

Dogs that have great scores on their vet certs can still throw a pup that has problems.

Ask around, check out the kennel, nicely interrogate the breeder, meet the dogs, and make informed decisions. If the breeder grills you then you could be at the right place.

Meeting the puppies can result in an impulse buy. You really have to steel your heart and emotions, if you intend not to plop money on the table right then and there.

Be sure your home is ready for the puppy. A young pup is like a baby and needs lots of intermittant attention as well as large doses of love.

HTH
 

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It sounds similar to here. The only requirement for registration is that the sire and dam are registered and the owner(s) of dam and sire sign a declaration!
i was told you will only find the best breeders on the kc register which is were i found this breeder
I agree that the best breeders will only breed kc registered pups (all dogs must be kc registered to be hip and elbow scored) but not all kc registered dogs come from good breeders or are good examples of the breed. I think I mentioned on another post the breeder (puppy farmer! :x ) in Norforlk who recently handed over 160 pups to the RSPCA for rehoming – she had an affix and registered litters – and from what I have read about the conditions they were kept in I’m amazed she new which ones were kc registered and which ones weren’t – still that’s another story.
I would start with a breed club and if you’re in the UK, Discover Dogs is on at Earls Court 13th & 14th November - may well be worth a visit.
But as labdad says – it's buyer beware.
Good luck
 
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