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Hi All,
I have just been on the phone to my friend in Denmark who tells me that the condition 'Exercise Induced Collapse' has been found in some of the Danish Labradors. He will be testing his dogs and I have offered to test Mildred as a precaution for future Anglo/Danish litters. I have all the details of the tests and prices from the University of Minnesota. So I will be sending a blood sample off to them. I just wondered if anyone else had tested their dogs for EIC? :?

There is no way Mildred will have the condition because she has three runs a day with my Lurchers and Terriers and runs around like a complete nutcase. I just want the test done to reassure my friend that his dogs bloodlines will be in good hands when his pup joins my Kennel.
 

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There is no way Mildred will have the condition because she has three runs a day with my Lurchers and Terriers and runs around like a complete nutcase.
How old is she?

Regards, John
 

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14 months John. As I have mentioned, I really don't think that she has any problems and I don't think that the Danish Kennels I'm getting my pup from has any problems. I just think that they want the tests as a reassurance to possible buyers of future litters. :?
 

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Denmark, Finland and Germany are rather hot on EIC testing. I asked the age because most start to show effects (as I understand it) between 9 months and 2 years. 80% are having episodes by 3 years, but a few 6 year olds are still not showing any effect. But I also know 5 carriers who are having episodes, which in theory they cannot. So I do have certain question marks about the test.

At the moment they have tested some 7000 dogs with 900 affected. This equates to just under 13%, but I believe the results are slewed by collapsing dogs being tested to confirm that it actually is EIC. (This has been hinted by them.) I believe, and again they have hinted that the final figure will likely be around 4%.

I dont feel I can recomend a course of action to you. Certainly I have no intention of testing my dogs and would not be looking specifically for pups from EIC tested parents. But then again, would I be looking at their pedigree to see if there was any of my "Suspect" dogs on there? I guess human nature says yes I would.

Regards, John
 

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i would not buy any show dog, especially choc linies without one is tested eic clear...
(my dogs are tested)

i know also a carrier of eic john... and he has fits.... there is a video in the internet, if wished i put it in here.
and you will see this are not eic collapses
(in fact he has a few known epi dogs behind)
lots of epi owner (or breeder) wish now their dogs have eic...
because otherwise they had to admite their dogs have epi
or any other thing, what is not testable
so yes me and many other people (and uni minnesota) believe this test is correct....
and me personnaly don´t think that the % in the labrador population are wrong.

lots of people have bred with affected dogs......
thats a fact....
some dogs collapsed may be once in their life time....
or never
and the reason we don´t know....
i believe that some dogs feel it, and cool themself down

lg evelyn
 
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I asked the age because most start to show effects (as I understand it) between 9 months and 2 years. 80% are having episodes by 3 years, but a few 6 year olds are still not showing any effect.
I know all too well how an extremely fit and active dog can suddenly start having episodes. I'm not really at liberty to discuss details on an open forum but PM me if you want more details.
 

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This one keeps coming up lately, I am sure these issues go round in cycles.

I for one won't be testing my dogs routinely unless a problem arises. I feel we can test and test till we are blue in the face but something else will always be round the corner and the only winners are the testing labortatories making a lot of money from us.

I was concerned about CNM, and started clinics, but didn't realise several other tests were arriving immediately on the back of CNM or maybe would have been more cautious in embracing a new test for which very very few of us will ever see a dog affected by.

There has to be a limit to 'doing all we can' in my view, with half an eye on the quality of labrador we are producing too.

I would think a few have tested in the UK, results are not published so therefore it would be down to the owner to declare they had. Because we don't see that many dogs with the problem and so haven't welcomed the test with open arms I feel black looks coming our way from the continent and possible accusations of burying our head.

I feel the future right now as regards healthtesting is pretty grim myself with such a range of tests becoming avaliable and everyone and every country having its own priorities.

Di
 

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i did not do every test available....
just the major one, and one i have seen a prob. in MY line...
few people do tests only, when they wait for the clear result...
so they can write it at their webside
(oh the litter is xxxx clear, oh my dogs are xxxx clear)

evelyn
 

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Well Evelyn I tested because as a breeder I could not go on and produce pups without knowing that I had done my very best to ensure the pups were healthy (no guarantees, of course, but I had done my best).

I feel I am probably in the same place as Di, and many other breeders, are at the moment. Enough is enough. The laboratories are lining there pockets. No final decisions from me at the moment, but I do feel the only test if a problem arises close to home may be the way to go. I too am starting to fear that testing may be the ruination of the breed we love.
 

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did not do every test available....
just the major one, and one i have seen a prob. in MY line...
This is exactly what I was saying Evelyn. People are testing because they think there might be a chance there is a problem, so the results we are seeing ane not a random sample and are slewed in the direction of carriers and affecteds. This is why I still maintain that the levels are lower than at present indicated. When testing for PRA in cockers started America was finding an 80% fail rate, but now more people are testing and the dogs tested are becoming more of a random sample that percentage is dropping fast.

Regards, John
 

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I would agree with Jill and Di's excellent points. I do feel we are carrying out far too many tests and expecting to be able to breed or buy a bionic dog free from everything !

There was a piece on EIC in spaniels a year or so ago in the shooting times, with a vet carrying out a study to show results in the breed and whether the collapses on a shoot day were down to EIC or just over exhaustion, I must try and dig out that issue and refreseh my memory on it.

My latest young lab bitches are cnm and optigen tested, once a year old they will have their hips done and eye tests and thats all I am carrying out on them, why, because if I choose to breed from them in the future then I know I will tried my best to make sure they are healthy.
 

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John I think you make a seriously seriously important point. Panic sets in because at the start of any new test the only people using it are people who think they might have a problem (and if they *think* it, they usually are right), so it is not, what you might call, Joe Public's 'general population result.

Panic sweep because a huge percentage come back affected or carriers and so the idea a huge problem is brewing becomes cemented in folks heads. 'Hey! the figures PROVE that don't they?' But of course, no they don't, because its not a decent fair spread of dogs tested - only those with question marks against them already because maybe they have shown symptoms, or produced a dog that has shown symptoms of the problem.

So when we walk around scratching our heads because we hear all these huge figures of dogs returning as affected or carriers, yet we have probably never seen a dog affected showing symptoms ourselves, it just doesn't weigh up. If things are so bad where IS this massive derge of dogs affected by XXXX problem we hear so much about??

But there are figures and there are FIGURES and I think its so important to realise that the first two years or so of any new test avaliable will scare the pants off anyone. But we need to breathe. Let the general population do a bit of testing, and then realise its not the devil we thought it was.... or refuse to test because we now are seeing a pattern here and we won't fall into the same trap again of being fooled into thinking it is worse than it is. I know I have been fooled in the past, and intend to be far calmer with all the new tests offered before jumping in.

Di
 

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you think laboratories are earning money with us??
of course they do, or do you think anybody would put some money into a research...
i feel lucky to have a breed, people are doing researches about...
what is with the races of small populations???
they would need much more testing.

so everybody choose the test he likes, or don´t test....
i don´t care :wink:
i just said, that we have a lot of show dogs affected, and choc especially.

we have one pure bred working line carrier (carrier progeny of a clear mother) from irland

lg evelyn
 

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A subject very close to my heart!

As many of you know - Monty has been DNA tested for EIC and is a carrier. I believe that EIC is a time-bomb just waiting to go off here in the UK - just as it has in the US. It would seem that only a tiny number of UK breeders have done this test - they are burying their heads in the sand! The EIC gene is here in the UK, as in other parts of Europe - not just in America.

I quote from a recent EIC question/answer session held by Minnesota researchers on a US website -

"I'm not sure that a high percentage of carriers in one breed vs. the other tells us as much about when the mutation was introduced into the breeds so much as telling us that certain sires that were/are popular may have been carriers and the carrier frequency increased as they were bred more extensively.

With the presence of the mutation in several retriever breeds, this would point toward the introduction of the mutation before the breeds were split and the studbooks closed."


It doesn't take a genius to work out that many of our dogs must have this gene - after all most US labs come from UK show lines. I have been contacted by the owners of some UK dogs (and a few US) with the gene - and some with dogs that have not yet been tested but are collapsing - and the same names keep coming up in their pedigrees. Go onto US sites and lots of EIC dogs are listed there by their owners - and again those same names are there if we go back a few generations.

I really think that most British breeders are frightened of "opening a can of worms" as far as EIC is concerned.
 

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From the same Q&E, and the bit I find very interesting:-

"With a 40% carrier rate this is what you could expect to see if breeding occurs at random:

You would have a 40% that your dog was a carrier, and a 40% chance that the dog you chose to mate your dog to is a carrier.

40% x 40% = 16% of mating occurring between 2 carriers

From that 16% of matings, on average you will see 25% clear, 50% carriers, and 25% affected.

25% of 16% = 4% affecteds

So, with a population of 40% carriers, in which affecteds are not bred, you would expect to see a 4% affected rate if breeding occurs randomly."


Now this is pretty much in line with what we are seeing now in the Optigen test.

Regards, John
 

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June - logically though, we have bad genes for alots of things floating around from dwarfism, through to cleft pallets, through to CNM, EIC, Epilepsy, etropian etc etc... all very distressing at the time and all probably to a great degree genetic. So noone is burying their head in the sand. Its just from the figures quoted and the words like 'timebomb' and so on, we tend to think you would see Labradors collapsing at every turn....or even nearly every turn.... or at LEAST sometimes.... but very very few people have every seen a single attack/collapse. So I don't doubt for a millionth of a second the problem exists. Nor that it is genetic. Nor that its very distressing if you have a dog with it. Nor that the test is pretty reliable. But all that doesn't weigh against how many actual dogs we see with it affected.

If the USA has a big problem with it I quite agree, many of their lines are based from Uk lines. meaning those lines have been running for many years - and still....very very dogs seem collapsing... so yes, if we are riddled with it, where are the (surely) many affecteds? Remember when you have an affected dog with anything you tend to dig deeper and deeper.

I now slightly regret making a huge fuss about CNM simply on the same kind of loose ground that i can't say in 16 years I have bred, seen or heard about a single case of an affected dog. So really, why are we testing? Its great we are now we are, but how many more of these tiny minority conditions are we going to have to test for?

You know i feel for you and anyone with a collasping dog terribly. But this is not a common problem and so noone is burying their head. If we see something happening frequently (like ED, HD, HC etc) breeders tend to 'care' and 'test'. When they dont, its hard to feel terribly worked up about a problem unless it affects your own kennel or you actually see some hard evidence of multiple cases of it.

Di
 

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That's what US lab owners thought too Di 8O

Now many top North American breeders are finding that half of their kennel has the EIC gene. But I am glad to say that quite a number of them are not afraid to publish this fact on their websites and other lists. There is a now lot of info available for those who want to find out more.

I'm afraid that for now Di - we will have to agree to disagree. But (sadly for the dogs that will suffer) time will tell :roll:
 

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I know evelyn, but sometimes things crop up to discuss from the answers that appear.

WHY responsible breeders might not test for EIC routinely is as important a question I feel, on a public forum, as IF they have tested. The viewing public may well think 'the test is there - why not use it?'.

June, but there has to, as a kennel, be logic in asking, IF there are so many Carriers out there, why more dogs are not showing any affected symptoms. I mix on both sides of the breed, day and night for the last 16 years and hand on heart i have only come across mentions of this or 'wobbly leg symdrome' as they used to call it, on a tiny handful of occasions.

If we were riddled with it logic says, like HD etc, we would be having far more reports of the problem.

The US might well used to have this view. But if they bought their dogs from *us*,for many years, and now have a massive problem, why don't we? We have had those dogs around a lot longer than them multiplying. And I don't mean how many dogs might be Carriers. Being a Carrier matters not a jot if there aren't many dogs out showing affected symptoms.... and there really seems not to be....??

I know Monty has been through hell and back. But we can't start ruling dogs out (which coming back a Carrier, with so few dogs tested out there for EIC, will mean absolutely as there will be no partners for them to GO to...) for these minority conditions surely? Especially not when there are further tests out there and further tests round the corner... ?? Its such a much broader picture.... when you are a breeder thinking of not just your own one dog.... if you see what i mean....?

Di
 

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oh i am sure dogs are collapsing
(their was a breeder in germany, wrote that one of her bitches did...
and she thinks it was the heat....few month later she knew it...)
or dogs never do, just when the pups are meeting each other,
and people say: oh this is normal it can happen...

it was until now with every test... no blind dogs, no pups put down, no dogs collapsing
and than all over sudden they crawl out of the holes :roll:
 
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