Labradors Forums banner

1 - 6 of 6 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

We recently lost our 6 1/2 year old lab to cancer. Unfortunately, she also suffered from elbow dysplasia, and had to have an arthroscopy at a specialist vet early in her life.

We are looking at getting a new lab pup in the not too distant future. We've seen a few litter from a very reputable breeder, where both parents have low hip scores and 0 elbow scores. However, looking at the breeding history, there's one grand parent with a 0/1 elbow score. I've also seen similar in other litters.

Should this be a deal breaker? Should I walk away straight away, or should I realistically only be looking at both sets of parents?

Any help appreciated.
Thank you!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
The kennel club website has something called an 'Estimated Breeding Value' which calculates the likelihood of poor elbow scores being produced with progeny. They do the same for hips as well. A 1 elbow grade would not be a deal breaker for me, but if the EBV showed there is an increased probability of the lines producing problems then that would put me off.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,911 Posts
The elbow scoring scheme has actually not been in existence for that long in the order of things. Eye testing was the first test to be developed very many years ago, originally to try to screen Irish Red Setters for night blindness. Interestingly the test was to call the dog along a darkened corridor in the Kennel Club headquarters, and if it got to the other end without running into a wall it passed! (We've moved on a lot since those days!!) Hip scoring was the next test to be developed, starting in the early 1970.

It was around 10 years later before elbow scoring was introduced. and I have to say that initially the take up was quite slow. Also over the years since it started the scheme has changed several times, and one change could affect what you are seeing Ian_w. When the scheme first started the recommendation from the KC and BVA was that it was OK to breed from dogs scoring 0 and 1, so you will find many dogs further back in the pedigree who scored 1. But it was found that the incident of ED was not really improving the way it had been anticipated and relatively recently the recommendation changed, Now the recommendation is to only breed from dogs scoring 0, but it's quite possible that the dog you are looking at was at a time when using a dog scoring 1 was considered perfectly acceptable. But of course, it's easy for a recommendation to be changed but many people still do not know that it's changed. They do not take the KC gazette, where it was published, and are not personally involved in health testing apart from getting their dog scored. The result comes back as 1 and they say to themselves "Oh, a 1. Thats OK then, I can breed!" One of the reasons we always tell people to use a responsible breeder, one who has kept up to date with latest recommendations and latest thinking. All the health schemes have changed over the years, adapting to latest thinking and conditions, and it's important that breeders do keep up to date.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,676 Posts
The elbow scoring scheme has actually not been in existence for that long in the order of things. Eye testing was the first test to be developed very many years ago, originally to try to screen Irish Red Setters for night blindness. Interestingly the test was to call the dog along a darkened corridor in the Kennel Club headquarters, and if it got to the other end without running into a wall it passed! (We've moved on a lot since those days!!) Hip scoring was the next test to be developed, starting in the early 1970.

It was around 10 years later before elbow scoring was introduced. and I have to say that initially the take up was quite slow. Also over the years since it started the scheme has changed several times, and one change could affect what you are seeing Ian_w. When the scheme first started the recommendation from the KC and BVA was that it was OK to breed from dogs scoring 0 and 1, so you will find many dogs further back in the pedigree who scored 1. But it was found that the incident of ED was not really improving the way it had been anticipated and relatively recently the recommendation changed, Now the recommendation is to only breed from dogs scoring 0, but it's quite possible that the dog you are looking at was at a time when using a dog scoring 1 was considered perfectly acceptable. But of course, it's easy for a recommendation to be changed but many people still do not know that it's changed. They do not take the KC gazette, where it was published, and are not personally involved in health testing apart from getting their dog scored. The result comes back as 1 and they say to themselves "Oh, a 1. Thats OK then, I can breed!" One of the reasons we always tell people to use a responsible breeder, one who has kept up to date with latest recommendations and latest thinking. All the health schemes have changed over the years, adapting to latest thinking and conditions, and it's important that breeders do keep up to date.
Unfortunately, because the KC do not specifically state not to breed from a 1 elbow grade some breeders are using that as an excuse, including the owner of one particular website that advertises puppies. I think the KC wording (which you'll know off by heart anyway) is something like they recommend only to breed on from a 0, and not from a 2 or 3 grade, but for some reason do not mention 1, which some are taking as it's fine to breed because it doesn't specifically say not to.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
20,911 Posts
think the KC wording (which you'll know off by heart anyway) is something like they recommend only to breed on from a 0, and not from a 2 or 3 grade, but for some reason do not mention 1,
Sadly at the time of the change they took the old recommendation, "recommend only to breed on from a 0 and 1, and not from a 2 or 3 grade" they simply deleted the 1, making it, "recommend only to breed on from a 0, and not from a 2 or 3 grade." Unfortunately it's what I've been saying for years, it's a business run by dog people without the necessary skills of business people. In my old working days, when my boss was conducting a disciplinary interview, I was always asked to sit in and write up the report. (I have to say, even my love letters looked more like reports!!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks for the responses.

Thanks for the explanation that a '1' used to be 'acceptable' but now only a 0/0 should be bred from. That explains why dogs with a 1 have been bred previously in the pedigree.

I've checked both parents on the KC EBV site (thanks for the recommendation), and both parents are at 'low risk' of passing on elbow and hip dysplasia. However, the grandparent with a score of '1' still bugs me, and I'm unsure if I'm being too careful, or if the right thing to do is walk away!
 
1 - 6 of 6 Posts
Top