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Discussion Starter #1
and running rings around us at times :evil:

it's only niggly little things and it's not all the time but it is annoying!

quite often on walks - infact all these things are on walks - she just will not sit, i'll ask her to sit and she just won't, what she is doing is far more important. i end up have to ask her repeatedly at times and i know you're not really supposed to do that :? how can i get her to sit first time?

i've started playing and doing more training with her on walks but if she doesn't want to be doing either of those she just b*ggers off and starts sniffing and i'm left standing there like a lemon. again what she wants to do is more important than what i'm doing with her. how can i regain control with this? i can't see how i can make her fetch something if she doesn't want to :? do i move onto something that is more exciting for her?

her walking speed is fast or faster, she just will not slow down! if i have to slow down for what ever reason she pulls me so i have to walk fast. i can't really walk fast constantly at the moment as i've hurt my leg, so what can i do here? :?

about half of her walks are off lead sniffing walks and it's been suggested to me that i do more things with her, like the playing and or training but if she's intent on not having the interaction with me what can i do? i was really looking forward to doing all these things with her but she keeps s*dding off!

i know all of this is just her sticking two fingers up at me but what can i do so that is no longer the case?

i really want to iron out these little niggles because in every other way she is wonderful, so any help will be hugely welcome and much appreciated!

christine and poppy.
 

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Ah bless you. Your Poppy sounds like she has a very similar mindset to Luna here.

quite often on walks - infact all these things are on walks - she just will not sit, i'll ask her to sit and she just won't, what she is doing is far more important. i end up have to ask her repeatedly at times and i know you're not really supposed to do that how can i get her to sit first time?
If Luna is within reach or on lead then I will only ask her to sit once now and if she doesn't I'll either tap her gently just above her tail or will rattle the lead so her collar jangles. I'll then just wait for the penny to drop. Which it tends to when we don't move anywhere and I don't let her move off if she tries to.

i've started playing and doing more training with her on walks but if she doesn't want to be doing either of those she just b*ggers off and starts sniffing and i'm left standing there like a lemon. again what she wants to do is more important than what i'm doing with her. how can i regain control with this? i can't see how i can make her fetch something if she doesn't want to do i move onto something that is more exciting for her?
Luna's weak spot is chase. If she decides to sniff then I run - sometimes at her, sometimes away and sometimes behind the nearest tree. Another favourite attention grabber for Luna is for me to sneak off while she's sniffing to hide behind a tree or in grass where I can see her then either wait for her to notice I'm missing (she panics!) or call 'find me'! I'll also take a 'surprise' toy out with me often and produce it to tease her with. She gets bonked on the head and a bit of tug but doesn't get to play with it! It can distract her for a spell if I'm daft enough playing with it myself and just keep it out of her reach!

her walking speed is fast or faster, she just will not slow down! if i have to slow down for what ever reason she pulls me so i have to walk fast. i can't really walk fast constantly at the moment as i've hurt my leg, so what can i do here?
I accidently fell upon this one because when I took Luna for short walks after she'd had 2months rest for whatever reason she walked really slowly once she realised we were heading home. I began to get frustrated before one day realising slow walking was nice!!!! At that point the treats came out, the praise started and the words 'SLOW WALK' became associated. She can now FAST WALK (a run for me!), CLOSE WALK (quite a fast pace but ok on a walk) and SLOW WALK. Difficult to achieve all the time but working on it. I guess my tip here is take advantage if/when she ever dawdles and teach her a corresponding word that you can then practice further.
The other thing that I'm doing when Luna starts doing a very fast CLOSE WALK :roll: is rattling her lead. She wears a half check collar with metal chain to attach lead to and she tends to know that she needs to come back to heel when I shake it.
Another command that can be useful is EYES or LOOK which means make eye contact with me. We taught Luna when playing in the garden by saying the word when she made eye contact then rewarding by kicking the ball or playing. Luna naturally drops back next to me when walking if I say EYES now cos is difficult to walk whilst looking up back at me!

I have to say that owning an independently minded, intelligent pooch keeps me on my toes as much as a class of children did when I was teaching!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
taken all that on board and will put it into action tomorrow. thank you :D

i hadn't even considered playing chase with her to grab her attention :roll: :oops:

the slow walking thing might be hard though as when poppy realises she's going home she lays down so i have to speed up before she hits the floor and try and jolly her along 8O :roll: :oops:
 

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the slow walking thing might be hard though as when poppy realises she's going home she lays down so i have to speed up before she hits the floor and try and jolly her along
oooooh, how annoying! Does she slow down at all before laying down??? The praise and reward for doing what she's doing could keep her moving....?

I can't really take credit for the chasing and hiding ideas - my OH is a bit of a big kid and started those games!

Have fun tomorrow! We're on lead walks as Luna is giving off season vibes despite being spayed last year :roll: (That's another thread!)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
no slowing down really, she tends to lunge and grab at something and then lays down to chew it. and she times it so there are always several cars going past at the time, quite embarrassing :roll:

have read about luna's problem, hope you get it sorted ok!
 

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Here’s a few thoughts for you. You say,

“i'll ask her to sit and she just won't, what she is doing is far more important. i end up have to ask her repeatedly at times and i know you're not really supposed to do that how can i get her to sit first time?”

Just look at that statement for a minute and let’s break it down.

“i'll ask her to sit“ No you don’t! It’s an order, not a request.

“she just won't, what she is doing is far more important.” Oh yes she will. Nothing is more important than an order. Remind her of what a very well known trainer says, “Who buys the biscuits!” Instant obedience is not a discussion point, it can be a life saver if she happens to be running towards a busy road.

“i end up have to ask her repeatedly at times and i know you're not really supposed to do that how can i get her to sit first time?” Only EVER give one command and if it is not obeyed then enforce it.

When it comes to commands, here is a mantra to try to live by. Try to never give a command unless you are in a position to enforce it. Obviously there are times when you cannot do that, safety issues and all that, but most of the time this does not apply and commands are given “Because it of convenience” rather than essential. You KNOW when she has just found an interesting sniff that she is not going to come if you call her, but you call her anyway and true to form she ignores you. So what has she learned? That the “Come here” sound we make is just that, a sound with no importance! How much better to wait until she has finished her sniff and is about to wander off before you call her. At that point there is no major interest for you to compete with so she comes, and gets praised for coming! It’s all about training to succeed rather than training to fail.

When I’m training a puppy the one thing on my mind is to try to never allow my pup to believe she has a choice. It is not a matter of correcting the failure, it’s about not allowing the failure to happen. And because it is always success it’s always praise. Personally I don’t use titbits for reward, it’s hands and voice. I don’t want my pup to be in so much of a rush to get the titbit that it forgets what it’s getting it for so I prefer quiet calm praise.

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #7
thank you for your advice. :D

the point of my post was to find out how to enforce commands such as "sit". when you say enforce, how do you actually mean? do i hold something above her nose, push her bum down etc?

her recall is not actually a problem, unless she's seen a bird or a rabbit but we're working on that and so far it's going well thanks to advice i got on the forum. i'm aware of not setting her up to fail but what if i've sent her to fetch something, she goes after it and on her way back to me a nice smell catches her attention and she promptly goes off to sniff that rather than coming back to me, what do i do then? is that setting her up to fail? :?

christine and poppy.
 

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poppington said:
the point of my post was to find out how to enforce commands such as "sit". when you say enforce, how do you actually mean? do i hold something above her nose, push her bum down etc?.
If mine don't sit when told to I just run my hand down their back and tuck their bottoms under. Once in position, I might say 'good sit' just to reinforce the command.

Dogs learn in to context they are taught something, so although Poppy may be very sure that 'sit' means 'sit' in the kitchen, back garden, hallway, she still needs to learn that 'sit' means sit in every other environment too, so continue doing it as a training exercise anywhere and everywhere.

Becs and The Gang
 

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the point of my post was to find out how to enforce commands such as "sit". when you say enforce, how do you actually mean? do i hold something above her nose, push her bum down etc?
Once my pups have started to get to know the command I then use all of those techniques. (Although rather than push the bum down I use more like Becs and rock the pup into the sit so as not to put load on the hips) I also use a method of putting my hand under the head and lifting the head. The object being that only the voice command is constant so my pup does not start waiting for the hand on the bum.

Dogs learn in to context they are taught something, so although Poppy may be very sure that 'sit' means 'sit' in the kitchen, back garden, hallway, she still needs to learn that 'sit' means sit in every other environment too, so continue doing it as a training exercise anywhere and everywhere.
This is so true Becs, you can teach a dog gundog work in one field and it will appear untrained in another, right to the time that you have really imbedded it into the brain!

and on her way back to me a nice smell catches her attention and she promptly goes off to sniff that rather than coming back to me
This is the point where you need the Jekyll and Hyde voice. Lots of happy voice as she is coming back changed in an instant as she deviates then back to the happy voice the instant she is back on line. Dont be afraid to let her know you are displeased. Exaggerate the displeasure, make being good as different as possible to being bad.

Regards, John
 

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This is the point where you need the Jekyll and Hyde voice. Lots of happy voice as she is coming back changed in an instant as she deviates then back to the happy voice the instant she is back on line. Dont be afraid to let her know you are displeased. Exaggerate the displeasure, make being good as different as possible to being bad.
So true!! Luna will veer off for a sniff giving me that LOOK to see if she'll get away with it and can almost seem pleased when she gets a growl of an AH AH!!! She runs back with ultra floppy ears and puppy lollop anyhow!
 

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I have been having all the same problems so we went to see a trainer. Feel free to steal the tips below - for Holly they work 80% of the time - she is not into food treats but social interaction in a big way.

If she runs off to see another dog whilst off lead she usually turns back glances at me then runs away - I used to think this was her sticking her fingers up at me but the trainer tells me this is her checking with me so when she does this I run in the other direction, walk off or lie down (yes you look mental but it does the trick!)

Holly used to pull on the lead a lot. Now I use a sliplead and as soon as she pulls, I ignore her, stop and stare at the sky, the trainer says you walk on again and babble at her syaing good dog - for some reason when we stop Holly sits but that works for us!

The major thing that has changed for us is that Holly was amazingly attention seeking so wanted to play all the time. Now I ignore her a lot unless I want to play and it seems to work so she listens to me. I made a tug toy out of an old sheets which I plaited together and when I want to play I shout 'tuggy' and drag her around for 2 mins - she loves it and it is brill way of getting her into the house from the garden without chasing her. It also seems to make her less attention seeking. The tugtoy is taken away at the end of the session

I am not sure if all this is right but it seems to be working 80% of the time so I have a calmer 9 month old

Let me know if any of the tips you get work

Jo
 
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This is the point where you need the Jekyll and Hyde voice. Lots of happy voice as she is coming back changed in an instant as she deviates then back to the happy voice the instant she is back on line.
Love that description John :wink: . I call it being Black and White or Mr Nice and Mr Nasty (or in my case Mrs :wink: ) and I can switch between the two in the blink of an eye at the right moment. I'm sure my neighbours think I've got a multiple personality disorder because I can go from "WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING!!!!" to "what a gooood puppy" all in the same breath :lol: .

It sounds like she is calling the shots at the moment and needs a dose of Nothing in Life is Free to remind her who is in charge (and it ain't her :wink: ). It's her whole attitude that needs to change really. Working on bits will only potentially solve those bits but she will find other ways of pulling your strings instead. Instead I'd make her work for what she wants, whether that is her dinner, to come into the living room, to sit on the sofa, to have attention.......everything, until she realises she doesn't call the shots anymore. There are some dogs who will need this approach all their lives because they are so hard headed but generally Labs are softer dogs than that.

If she is pulling you on a walk, keep her collar right up as high as it'll go on her neck, as they haven't got so much muscle up there to brace against the collar. If she moves too far forward, correct her firmly and stop until she is back in the right place, then praise her for being there. Pretend if she so much as pulls a little, your arm will drop off, so basically don't let her get away with ANY pulling, as the moment she does, she is calling the shots again.

There is plenty of good advise above and I'm sure if you get on her case now you'll crack this attitude problem but just remember, the more times she gets away with things, the more ingrained this attitude will become, so don't go slacking and feeling sorry for her :wink: .
 

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Discussion Starter #13
thank you everyone.

she's definitely calling the shots, not so much at home though :?

i do use the jekyll and hyde voices, or try to. on our bit of play/training on our local field yesterday when i threw something for her and she went after it then b*ggered off i did the jekyll/hyde thing and it was almost as if she was saying "sorry, what? i can't hear you!" when she does that it really gets to me, it kind of makes me feel that she doesn't want or need me and i don't know what to do to get that from her. but at home she is lovely, she follows us both about, wants to play with us (we don't play with her everytime she asks) and she's affectionate.

we use the nothing in life is free method at home, waiting for dinner etc. can i use this when out and about and if so how? sorry if i sound stupid, i just want to get it right :oops:
 

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:lol: :lol: The sniffing part and sodding off sounds like Jayda! I call Jayda my little sniffer dog! :lol:

I do training with her everyday and there is a big improvement. She does sit when told, but it's when she's on a sniffer mission, that she has selective hearing. I have found that being really 'happy happy' and 'lets go' attitude really works and she seems to pay more attention to me. I sound really silly when training her on the field cos I put on a high pitched voice and run around like a loon so she keeps interested in me.

Practice makes perfect. Sometimes I feel like giving up, but I will never give up on my Jayda.

Whatever you do, don't get frustrated with her! If you do then it's time to stop the training, as she will definatly bugger off if she feels you are frustated. This is my experience anyway.

Good luck.
 

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we use the nothing in life is free method at home, waiting for dinner etc. can i use this when out and about and if so how?
Yes, you can use this any place, in or out. It simply means that you demand payment for everything you do for her. A sit before you take the lead off for example, aim at leading up to a short sit stay after the lead comes off before releasing her. Call her back during the walk and do some heelwork training, on lead to start with then off lead as she improves. It's all about redressing the balance, you giving the orders not her. About her realising that everything good comes through you and without you she gets nothing. As Edward Martin says in his DVD, "Remind her who buys the biscuits!"

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #16
thank you.

ah ok, i already do the sit/stay for taking the lead off. hadn't really thought of that as "nothing in life..." :oops: :roll: i will add in some heel work sporadically throughout her walks. i do the odd sit/stay during walks as well but i do find it hard getting her to concentrate on me and what she is doing rather than what is going on around her. is there anything else i can do?

sorry for all the questions but i'm finding all the suggestions really interesting and helpful.
 

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I would also take a toy with me to play with. It's all aimed at making the area around me to be the most interesting place to be. Obviously she is around you all the time at home, so to compete with the sights and smells on a walk you have to make yourself so much more attractive. :wink:

Regards, John
 

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Discussion Starter #19
i've just been doing some stuff outside with poppy and it's made me realise that she has been playing me for a fool all this time, or i've been playing the fool for her and she's got me wrapped round her paw :oops:

hmm, i think she may have a shock in store for her 8O
 

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poppington said:
i've just been doing some stuff outside with poppy and it's made me realise that she has been playing me for a fool all this time, or i've been playing the fool for her and she's got me wrapped round her paw :oops:

hmm, i think she may have a shock in store for her 8O
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun!
You sound like you feel the way I did when I finally figured out the way to get Luna to return in the house when she was bumtucking after toiletting at 3 in the morning (last year!) was to wave her favourite toy from the door, shut the door once she'd run for it and put toy away out of reach!!! Her face the first time I did it, turned off the light and headed for bed instead of whispering curses at her whilst she jollied around the garden for 20mins was priceless!
 
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