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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all.
New to this forum.

I have a 3 half year old Lab :)

Just under a year ago she took a fit like her back legs were cramping, couldn't stand up etc after taking her to vets and having allsorts of tests the came back normal no epilepsy etc.
But she still seems to be having fits......she had one the other day and it seemed worse than the rest.........I have been researching online and came across the condition Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome which matches 100% to Poppys fits.
It does make sense as I always thought her fits do look like it could be Epilepsy (I have seen dogs taking Epileptic fits) there was something different about them ie the back legs cramping up and she only ever fits when she jumps up quickly and excitedly from lying down if she doesn't expect you coming through the door, if she hears you first she is fine.

Does anyone else's dog has this.....advice would be great?

Thanks

Leigh Anne
 

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Interesting subject! Does it exist as a seperate disease, or is it a form of an existing disease?

Spikes Disease, as it was originally known has been around for 7 to 8 years that I know of and was discussed at the 2002 health Seminar of the American Border Terrier Club. Is it the same as the disease which causes collapsing Chinooks? Possibly.

But I think latest research into collapsing problems has rather left CECS behind. So the first question is, have you sent DNA samples away for testing "Exercise Induced Collapse"

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/showGeneticTest.jsp?testID=8152

Apart from the expected "Genetically Affected" dogs collapsing we are also seeing a number of carriers also collapsing, which is something which in theory should not be happening. The team who produced the EIC test are now asking for DNA from these collapsing carriers to try to find out what is happining.

My thoughts are that a large proportion of CECS dogs, if DNA tested, would move across into either the EIC pigeon hole, or into the "Atypical" pigeon hole. And that if you have not already DNA tested for EIC (And many vets have not heard of this test) then that should be your first move.

Regards, John
 

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Hi Leigh Anne

Welcome to LF.
Are your dog's episodes anything like this?


<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/jazzypad/Dyskinesia%20Monty/MontyCollapse08.flv">

This is Monty, who after many tests, was diagnosed with paroxysmal dyskinesia. He's been having collapsing episodes for 3 and a half years now. Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome is thought to be a form of paroxysmal dyskinesia (likewise the Chinook "seizure").

As I believe John has mentioned, research is currently underway at the University of Minnesota into "Atypical collapse in labrador retrievers" - and dogs with paroxysmal/episodic dyskinesia are included in this research. This is the link -
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/faculty/Mickelson/lab/eic/AtypicalCollapse/home.html

If you feel that your girl's episodes are similar to Monty's - then please feel free to get in touch with me.
 

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Hi Leigh Anne, I don`t know anything about seizures I`m afraid, just wanted to say, welcome to LF and I hope you can get to the bottom of whats causing Poppy`s fits and something can be done to help her :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you

Thank you all for your replies.

Hi June, thanks for posting the video, yes Poppys fits are very much like Montys..........expect Poppy seems to shake a bit more and her legs seem to cramp up more. But the way Poppy is behaving is about 95% the same as Monty and as soon as these fits are over she is up and about hyper as usual.

She has been having these for about a year now, I will look into the link you sent me too.

If it is ok can I email you to ask a few questions? Does Monty have medication? what does the Vet recomend?
Thanks for your help

Leigh Anne
 

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Hi Leigh Anne

I was beginning to think you weren't coming back to us!

Of course I would be happy to hear from you via email please don't hesitate to contact me.
 

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Hi, I've only just seen this post, our much missed Bradleybear had episodes which originally were diagnosed as epileptic fits but we eventually worked out were CECS, his feet and legs would cramp up, he would be staring, and shaking a little, his tail would wag throughout tho. He never had one last over 2 minutes , they usually lasted about 30 seconds to one minute.

Eventually we were able to move him from phenobarbitone to the herbal remedy skullcap and valerian, he had the episodes 2 or 3 times a year, usually in march or september, occasionally one at the beginning of december. He would be fine immediately afterwards, they were not exercise induced - in fact he would usually have one while at rest, only had them twice while out walking. He started with them when he was about 6. His were just like the ones on the Spikes Disease website.

Hope your dog is doing ok. Hugs to you both.
 

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CECS in Chocolate Lab

Jazz said:
Hi Leigh Anne

Welcome to LF.
Are your dog's episodes anything like this?


<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/jazzypad/Dyskinesia%20Monty/MontyCollapse08.flv">

This is Monty, who after many tests, was diagnosed with paroxysmal dyskinesia. He's been having collapsing episodes for 3 and a half years now. Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome is thought to be a form of paroxysmal dyskinesia (likewise the Chinook "seizure").

As I believe John has mentioned, research is currently underway at the University of Minnesota into "Atypical collapse in Labrador retrievers" - and dogs with paroxysmal/episodic dyskinesia are included in this research. This is the link -
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/faculty/Mickelson/lab/eic/AtypicalCollapse/home.html

If you feel that your girl's episodes are similar to Monty's - then please feel free to get in touch with me.
Hi Jazz, I saw your post whilst looking on Google for information on CECS, Rory my Chocolate Lab displays symptoms similar.
If you look on YouTube under marsden2764 you can see 2 videos.

Have joined this forum to find out more information, but not sure of how to contact people. If you pick this up contact me on [email protected]

Hope to hear from you soon


Steve
 

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Hi Steve

Welcome to LF :)
Sorry to hear that Rory is having problems :(

Not sure if I can help - but I will certainly email you as soon as I get a few mins.
 

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Monty's seizures

Hi June, I'm knew to this forum so hope I have done this correctly but i am just back fro the vet who referred me to your posting and Monty's seizure is exactly the same only a lot shorter than one my youngest, Duncan had on Thursday night. He had his first fit 2 years ago and it was more typical of an epileptic seizure but he has had 3 in the last 3 months all very similar to Monty's so vet has referred us to a neurologist. I am really worried and haven't slept much for thinking about this. Vet thinks it is the same disorder Monty has and I wanted to ask you if there is any form of treatment?
 

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Hi and welcome to the forum :D

Sorry to hear about the episodes that Duncan has been experiencing :(

It seems that Monty's fame is spreading :lol: I'm curious to know who your vet is.

As you have not yet joined LF you are limited to five posts, and you are not able to use the private message facility - so I'm wondering if you would care to email me.

Then we can maybe have a chat about what has been happening with Duncan and I can tell you a bit more of Monty's story.

Hope to hear from you soon.
 

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Hi all,

My boy Jack has similar seizure type episodes to Monty although his legs cramp up into his abdomen and he is unable to move for around 5mins before his body starts to relax which is when he starts shaking and trembling and is very wobbly for about the next 15mins. Unfortunately I have no video of Jack's episodes but my vet has been brilliant and trusts my descriptions of the seizures and doesn't believe it is an epileptic seizure.

June was a wonderful help to me when I posted on the forum about Jack and is full of information about Monty's condition, so thank you June!
 

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June and I have had long discussions about one of my dogs. Will has 'episodes' (mainly excitement induced) when he collapses. He had a wide range of tests (including ones for narcolepsy and EIC) but I'm still non the wiser as to the cause, but having seen a video of a dog with CECS I suspect that's what it is.
 

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Hi June,

Touch wood, Jack has been doing well! He has had two episodes since March that I have seen, although I can't be certain he hasn't had any when I'm not with him. As you know, my vet had put him on Epiphen to see if it would help, but I spoke to her about my concerns and we are now slowly reducing the dosage and Jack should be off the medication in the next month or two. I try to keep Jack in a routine and calm and quiet as if he is upset or stressed, particularly with noise, he seems more likely to have an episode.

How has Monty been doing? I hope all is well with you.

Thanks
Cheryl and Jack
 

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Good to hear that Jack is doing so well :D

Monty was doing really well (14 weeks without an episode - a record for him!) until he recently had an extremely severe and prolonged one which went on for over an hour and a half :( It was pretty scary for both of us.

His episodes are no longer linked to excitement/sudden bursts of exercise which was a constant factor in the early years. He is now able to deal with those situations without collapsing but is having episodes without any obvious trigger.

He is still a very excitable and happy boy who enjoys life :D
 

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Hi everyone!

HI everyone! I'm a Portuguese yellow lab owner, Horus, As you all say about you labs, he's the sweetest dog. I found these forum as I researched for some answers for my Horus episodes.

My Horus had is first episode one year ago. I arrived from work and he was very happy following me everywhere, and suddenly he fell and started to lose he's balance, crumbling and trembling. At first I thought Horus was hurt because he seemed to be in pain, I thought he dislocated his hips or something. I ringed to my vet, she suggested me to go to the vet hospital. When I hang up the phone Horus was walking, still trembling a bit but in a couple of more minutes he was fine again. I called my vet again she said that maybe he had any pain but if it happened again I should go immediately to the vet hospital. Horus was fine in the flowing moths.

This July one day I decided to go with him to the beach. He loves the car. Ten minutes after we lefted home he was all happy smelling all the smells from outside and suddenly he falls to the middle of the seats trembling. I stopped the car, take him out. He was very tense, and shaking, so I putted him in the car and drove back home. When I arrive home he was great, happy and jumping.

In the end of this October he was at home with me and Alvin my other dog (one year weimaraner). They were both laying in their beds resting and then suddenly Horus tried to stand up and he couldn't do it right. His muscles were very tense, he was shaking and trembling, he was having balance difficulties but he was as always aware and responsive. At first he lose control of he two legs and tried to fight it (it's the hard part to see), then he lays and give up fighting and the trembling started to be more concentrated in his back legs. Then he stands up still shaking specially in his back legs. And after a bit he his fine.

I looked online and found videos of other labs having the exact same thing as Horus. I saw Monty videos and it's very similar to the episodes my Horus had.

Well my vet says it's epilepsy and din't pay may attention to it. She said that because the episodes occur with moths between we wouldn't do anything, and if they stated to became more frequent that he would start medication.
My sister is a vet student and talked to one of her teachers and her teacher also said that it may be epilepsy and that maybe Horus should have a full battery of exams to exclude anything else but that probably it's idiopathic epilepsy and if the episodes became more frequent... guess what... medication for epilepsy.

Well my concern is: here in Portugal everybody talks about epilepsy and nothing else. I wonder if you may help me to know more about paroxysmal dyskinesia, canine epileptoid cramping syndrome. is it epilepsy or some form of it?

Are your dogs who had the same episodes taking med, do they work?

I'm very confused right now.

By the way how is Monty dong?

Tank you and sorry for my rusty English!
 

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Hi Alezam,

I can understand your concerns. Let me say a few things which might help you understand the depth of the problem.

The word “Epilepsy” actually comes from an ancient Greek word and means “To lay upon” or “To Seize” In those olden times they thought the person had been seized by the gods!

Epilepsy is actually a general term used for many different conditions where a person or animal collapses, so it is not really particular condition as such, rather a name which covers many different conditions.

Gradually, over the last 10 years or so people have started to recognise that there are distinctly different kinds of collapse and have started to use different names to identify these different kinds. But the big problem is that there is no test for any of these different forms. All that can be done is to test to prove that the cause of the collapse is not linked so some other condition such as heart or breathing problems. If it is not any of these other conditions then it must be an “Epileptic like” condition.

Such conditions as Paroxysmal Dyskinesia and Canine Epitoidal Cramping Syndrome are names used, although not all people accept they are anything but just a form of Epilepsy and for as long as there is no test for these then I think it will remain that way. Even as recently as last night June, (Monty’s owner) and I were discussing the meaning of the words used by one specialist in an email to her, which seemed to indicate that the specialist maybe did not completely accept CECS as a separate condition.

So you see, there is no real agreement by any of the experts over exactly what we are seeing, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Having owned an Epileptic dog, and having watched several videos of dogs suffering from CECS like seizures there do appear to be certain differences, mainly with how the dog reacts at the end of the seizure. With Epilepsy, when the dog first stands up it seems very unsteady and disorientated, where with CECS it seems much more, “Like a switch” in that as soon as the dog stands it appears to be completely better. The other thing is that the usually forms of medication used for Epilepsy, Phenobarbitone, appear to not be any help with CECS.

She said that because the episodes occur with moths between we wouldn't do anything,
This is usual. My Beth had fits about every 6 weeks and I never medicated her. Had they ever got more frequent then yes, I would have, but she lived until almost 14 years old with no change in frequency, so it was never necessary.

I know the difference in language makes it difficult, but if there is anything you don’t understand, of any more info you need, don’t hesitate to ask.

Regards, John
 

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Hi Acelam - welcome to Labrador Forums. I'm June (Monty is my dog).

I am sorry to learn about the episodes that Horus is having.

As John mentioned, there are greatly conflicting opinions as to whether or not paroxysmal movement disorders such as CECS and paroxysmal dyskinesia may or may not be related to epilepsy. When Monty was diagnosed in 2007 I was told that paroxysmal dyskinesia is thought to be a genetic movement disorder originating in the basal nucleii (a different part of the brain to that affected by epilepsy). There are neurologists who still go along with this theory but there are also others who suspect it may be a rare form of epilepsy. The University of Minnesota began a research project looking at "atypical collapse in labrador retrievers" five years go but it seems as if they are not making much headway. There are 2 or 3 research programmes currently looking into Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome which, as CECS is mainly found in Border Terriers, are focusing on that breed at present. I would like to think that one of the projects may eventually be extended to cover this type of episode in Labradors - but that's not the case at this stage (I am working on it!")

There is no specific test for most forms of idiopathic epilepsy, just as there is no test for paroxysmal dyskinesia at this time. It's just a case of ruling everything else out. In epilepsy. as John mentioned, most vets do not recommend epilepsy type drugs unless a dog is having seizures more than once a month, because they can have some quite serous side effects in the long term. Dogs with paroxysmal dyskinesia/CECS do not usually respond to anticonvulsant drugs.

Monty had many neurological tests done before his diagnosis - and all results were normal other than elevated Creatine Kinase. We often see Creatine Kinase at high levels if bloods are taken days after an episode. Raised levels of CK indicate muscle damage of some sort.

As you have seen Monty's video clips you will have an idea what his episodes are like. They are not always identical and can vary considerably in severity. The most severe has lasted almost two hours - but an average episode is about 10 minutes. Once the episode is over he gets back to his feet and runs around as if nothing had happened. In epilepsy most dogs tend to have a post ictal stage where they are disorientated, unsteady, etc for a while. Frequency of episodes also varies (the longest he's ever gone between episodes has been 14 weeks but probably the average is around once a month)

Monty is not on any medication for these episodes - though I have tried many changes in diet, various supplements, homeopathic remedies etc. On one occasion I tried giving him rectal diazepam during a particularly bad episode and it actually seem to make things worse.

In the main Monty has learned to live with these episodes - though when one of those really bad ones comes on he is frightened (and so am I :roll: )
I have found that keeping him lying down (with lots of reassurance) until certain that the episode is over is best. If he keeps struggling to his feet it tends to make the episode worse. As you will have seen, Monty remains totally conscious and responsive throughout the episode. In the early years all episodes were related to excitement/sudden burst of energy - but over the past couple of years this has not been the case as he now has them without any obvious trigger.

Monty is now nine years old and has been having episodes since the age of two. He is perfectly normal between episodes, is happy and has a good quality of life.

Regarding Horus - there are tests which could rule out certain possible conditions - but if normal then they are unlikely to give you a definitive answer.

I know just how worried you must be as it's dreadful to see this happen to your dog. I would recommend that if this happens again you try to get a video of the episode to show to your vet or neurologist. No matter how well you describe something it's not the same as actually witnessing it. I would also suggest that you keep a diary of everything connected with Horus as this may help to identify any possible trigger.

I'm happy to chat with you further so please let me know if I can be of any help. If you could let me have your email address this may be the best way.
Please let us know how things go.

Your English is excellent!
 
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