[Ettinsmoor]

I just thought this might be an interesting topic to have a little mull over and maybe discuss. (I find it interesting anyway).

Some of you may remember that I bought Boots in when actually looking for a bitch pup for a friend. Boots as everyone knows had a high hip score so could not be used at stud (and is now having a wonderful life with Mo).

The bitch pup that my friend bought (Boots litter sister) has now been hip scored and is 0:0. We have been having a long chat this evening, as he is relatively new to dogs, kennels and gundog training, he has done everything I told him to do to the letter 8O, so these two pups have been brought up in exactly the same way, exactly the same food, he changed from puppy food to adult at exactly the same time as me, exactly the same amount of exercise, the same amount of training. I have cross examined him until my head hurts to try to find if he has done anything differently and not told me!!!!! Poor chap thought he was being interrogated. So there you go that is how random the whole hip question can be!! Not only that but I helped him pick a dog pup as well (from a completely different pedigree) and that has come back as 0:0. What are the chances of that happening? Anyway I guess I can stop beating myself up about the fact it was something I did, even though I am pretty sure it isn't, there is always a small niggle at the back of your mind. What a start he has for his kennel with a 0:0 bitch and a 0:0 dog!!!

One other dog pup from Boots litter has been scored so far I believe and he is 2:2.

 

[Moj]

Oh Jill, that's blimmin' heartbreaking. 0:0 and 2:2 - what cracking scores and super news for both owners and breeder alike. Just wish it could've been different for you and Boots

 

[Ettinsmoor]

Well Mo I think I've got over the heartbreaking bit, although it is of course.

Maybe I should just pick pups for other people but not for myself :wink: .

I am absolutely thrilled for Andy, who just wanted a couple of dogs to take rough shooting, and has ended up with two cracking 0:0 dogs. He was thrilled when telling me tonight, but trying so hard to be sensitive in a "manly" sort of way :wink: .

 

[Moj]

I find the whole issue surrounding mode of inheritance intriguing. Would love to know how it can be that one (or several) litter mates have great scores and others don't..... particularly when environmental factors have been controlled for as much as possible and therefore allow these pups to be compared like-for-like as far as is ever possible.

 

[sue51]

As you know Jill, I've been there - and this is why I've banged on long and hard about the correlation not being anywhere near as clear cut as some seem to believe ( from analysing ALL existing hip records to within an inch of their lives)

It's nothing you've done - one has to remember you cannot cause bad hips without something pretty major happens - the predisposition had to be there to start with.

If the DNA theory being worked on proves it is a random gene - you and I were just damn unlucky. In our case, the siblings were 2/2 and 5/6 :? no rhyme nor reason whatsoever

 

[Ettinsmoor]

Well thats what fascinates me Mo. He is just starting out so he literally asked me everything along the way, and we trained them together.

I have been wondering a lot about Puppy food and whether I should put pups onto adult food even earlier, but they were both changed at 5 months onto the same adult food. So that little theory is out the window!

 

[Ettinsmoor]

I know Sue, but you can't help looking at all possibilities.

Also if I hear one more person say to me "well its all environmental you know" I swear I will explode. 8O

 

[_Mary_]

As Sue says you and she were plain unlucky Jill, such a shame as Boots is a lovely boy, the man you chose the pup for must have been over the moon to get a 0/0 dog and bitch and probably worried about how to tell you.

Just shows that you can do absolutely everything right from picking a pup from scored parents to bringing it up the right way and still have one with too high a score

 

[tjlab]

Well as Jill knows I am in the "Gang" to, too many times, 3 of which I brought in, and have been totally gutted. Another I have bred myself with 5 generations of low hips behind her.......so Jill I know exactly how you feel as you know. But how bizarre 0.0 0.0 for your friend, really pleased for him but its not the be all and end all as we know too well.

This time its been better for me with Huni and Kenzi, thank god!!

Trace xx

 

[Ettinsmoor]

At the end of the day Trace he is probably more thrilled because he has two dogs that he can take Rough Shooting and know that they are under control and will handle onto game. He did not really have a clue how fantastic two 0:0's are until I explained it to him.

Poor chap got bullied into health testing by me and just did what he was told 8O :wink: .

 

[Diana]

Jill how fustrating and quite honestly, devestating for you.... nothing like, even entirely unintentionally, having ones nose rubbed in heartbreak...

I'm yet to meet anyone who gives the issue any thought, who thinks the inheritence mode is clearcut. There have been through the years for those at it a long time too many question marks and anomolies (spelling?!) crop up to think that.
I believe most just think that we do need some clear and easy to understand guideline to tell novice puppy buyers to give them the best possible chance we can of having a healthy puppy. Hence suggesting low to low matings as regards hip scores as an ideal. I think almost everyone completely understands however, this is not the complete story.

Its a total choker for you Jill. I don't think you need tear your soul apart on it though, as regards changing your routine - puppy food going out, adult food coming in, or anything like that, in my humble opinion. You just had a crap shoot and the odds were in your favour but chose to stack against you and Boots. nature can be a total bas*ard sometimes....

Di

 

[labler]

So sorry to here of your pups scores.... as we know...... its a % game.. no matter how good the scores of the parents may be.. 2 things for thought.... are you confident your plates were good, and the scoring accurate....... i would give that some thought... the 2nd.. diet.... labradors, being a large breed, have a specific need for slow bone developement... It is very important to feed foods with the correct calciium to phosphous levels... with calcium, not to exceed 2% for the first year... I think you'll find most adult dog foods are in excess of the reccomended calcium level... I've looked at a number of Uk based foods, and honestly..... none have the calcium levels listed on there sites..... I'm not suggesting this was the cause of you pups problems, still, be aware... feeding large breed puppy food... in most cases, ( and you need to verify per food) the calcium levels are under 2%.. to provide slow bone growth.. don't let old wise tales sway you from feeding the correct foods..

Mine and Elsa's
warm regards

 

[Ettinsmoor]

We are talking about two pups from the same litter here a dog and a bitch raised in exactly the same way, fed on exactly the same food and xrayed by exactly the same vet. What an ideal comparison to have!!!!!

Dog - Very High Score
Bitch - 0:0

I think it speaks for itself doesn't it?

 

[lablandi]

Does anyone think that a pup can be affected whilst still developing in the bitch - especially with regard to large litters?

I find this very interesting Jill - and I have not been affected by this problem, as yet but the 'other' problem in labs - HC, and litter siblings so far showing no sign of it - though obviously it could present itself later. But my girl was diagnosed at just under 2 yrs.

And I also believe that Sue's statistics showed that 0-0 parents very rarely produce 0-0 progeny :?

 

[sue51]

And I also believe that Sue's statistics showed that 0-0 parents very rarely produce 0-0 progeny :?

That's correct Jackie (up to the end of 2007 anyway ) - However, we do have a member on here who has recently smashed that By doing just that - a 0/0 dog from two 0/0 parents.

There is a theory that if you continually line breed, the hipscores will plateau because you are adding nothing new to the mix.

The statistics actually found that up to a certain point (considerably higher than the average), the likelihood of producing dogs with problems remains very remote.

Some of you will know I tried hard to find a supervisor to take this research forward to a doctorate - sadly, I have had no takers yet

 

[Zensmum]

We have had a similar situation in a way, Zen has high hips and both his brother and sister were fine . All fed the same way ,all exercised the same way brought up and kept by us , so for me the only factor that was different is that zen is yellow and they were black . Does this have any bearing , who knows .
I think that there must be some gene issue going on .

Our rescue, Tessa came to us at 8 months very very over weight and had three homes prior to us ( bless her she was in a bad way ) she has good hips but the worst movement I have come across ( when she was younger I got quite cross when people would say to me that she had HD :twisted: ) .

We went through the what have we done wrong bit and really I think that we have finally come to accept that it is just one of those things that life throws at you :roll: . Mind you I do now go a little ott when looking to buy in a pup and have to look into everything to try to supress my angst .

 

[Diana]

"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone think that a pup can be affected whilst still developing in the bitch - especially with regard to large litters? "


I think possibly even more so, how the pup is delivered (have you seen some forcep deliveries? They latch onto anything they can and tug hard with the contractions....?) Also if the pup is a flat liner when out and you have to seriously, seriously work on it, swinging, shaking, rubbing I cannot imagine that is wholey good for tiny, soft pliable joints for the future.

I think these are important things to factor the rare occasion they might be relevent (and if we didn't breed the litter we may not know...)

Di

 

[Ettinsmoor]

Your right, of course, Di I have no idea on the birth of the litter.

But it was a very experienced breeder who only has one litter a year, and I believe I am right in saying has produced the most 0:0 hip scored labrador dogs in working labs (probably in all labs) in the UK.

 

[Rivermeadow-KMH]

Oh Jill, that is just such hard news for you. Delighted for your friend, but gutted for you.

As you know, I have spent many an hour studying hip scores, and the majority of what I have found has already been discussed on this thread. However one other thing which what put to me as a possibility was what if the pup was not only injured in the birth, as already mentioned, but also if he were laid on by the bitch as a very tiny pup, when the joints were still very soft? Would this have an ill effect? I really don't know. Were Boots's hips fairly even, or was one worse than the other?

I guess it goes to show that although we work so hard to improve things, we still have a long way to go, and "luck" is still a strong element. Until we have bred from your friend's 0:0 pair, and my Oak with his 0:0 score from both parents 0:0. and we get results for Oak's siblings, we will not really know if we are suceeding in improving things for our breed. At least we know that we are trying our very hardest to do so, though.

A big hug for you Jill, at this emotional time. Will you have a pup should your friend have a litter in the future from his 0:0's?

Katy

 

[frilly]

I have a digital image of Hattie's hips,(2/2)

I tried to download it onto here but couldn't I just thought that JW would have been able to point out how the scoring was done. If anybody wants to see it, just pm me your email address.

It must be very frustrating for you Jill.

I have only ever seen one pup come back with high hip scores..(not mine) and when you look back, you could tell. It was out at the hocks and quite long in the back. All these factors would put strain on the hips and affect them. Both parents, right back, had good hip scores. She had been exercised very cautiously and fed properly and every possible care taken to prevent this. I just think her conformation wasn't quite correct and it put that extra strain in her young joints. Aggi ,Hattie's sister, is slightly out at the hocks and I bet her score is not quite as good as Hattie's....She is obviously from the same breeding and has had exactly the same care.........should know in the next few days 8O.

When you have done all that you can and it still comes back high you must feel so deflated. I think there is a lot more to understand and learn and it will be some considerable time before we can all be quite confident in getting continuously low hip scores.