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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thanks for info about checking breeders/pups out after my question what sort of lab. I was up til all hours trawling the internet checking out breeders etc.

On some breeders websites they put everything about their dogs health check results plus lots of other info, however on others, even though they were 'champion' dogs the info was sparse, so I checked them out on the Kennel Club website and was horrified to see that some were breeding from dogs which were carriers for eye disease, had massive hip scores, and were also breeding from very close family members. Of course on their websites it just said what beautiful dogs they were - nothing about their health!!!

I checked out the breeder where we got Brad from and all their dogs had very high hip scores!!

It just shows you do need to be very careful who you buy from - even people who bill themselves as 'quality' breeders and charge a very large fee for a dog which potentially may have problems. Wherever we get our new pup from I won't take be taking their word as gospel and will check them out before we go and see the pups as once you've set eyes on a little bundle of fun you are lost.

I've picked a couple of breeders out who I considered were breeding healthy pups (I know there's no guarantee but if they have a good start ...)and have emailed them to see when they will have pups for sale. So we are now eagerly awaiting replies and are looking forward to having a new little lab in our lives hopefully in the near future.

I'll have to work out how to upload pics onto the site. Thanks for the info.
 

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I agree it is a minefield out there, I personally now would only buy from a breeder who had been recommded by word of mouth, who can back up the health scores and who I like :D

Good luck with your search :D
 
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I agree you do have to be careful and check everything rather than just take it as read.

I would just point out there is nothing wrong with mating a "Carrier" as long as it is put to a "Clear", as the pups will never be "Affected" from that mating. :wink:
 

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_Jules_ said:
I would just point out there is nothing wrong with mating a "Carrier" as long as it is put to a "Clear", as the pups will never be "Affected" from that mating. :wink:
Jules - the same goes for 'Affected' dogs for PRA providing they are mated to clears - all pups will be carriers and never affected.

Can I also point out to the OP that the annual eye certificate is just that, and dogs may well be bred from for a short, or even long period of time before failing an eye test and blowing people's worlds apart - that is not wrong, that is, particularly for HC, it is bl**y unlucky - there but for the grace of god go all of us.

With regards to hipscores - you will have your own tolerances on what you would accept and that is fine - but - a dog is much more than a set of hips - 15 is the AVERAGE not the upper limit - and I know you haven't mentioned any names, but have alluded to successful kennels where none of us are wholly qualified to make a judgement without knowing all the facts. You comment on your boy's ancestors having high scores - what do you mean by high? I note he is no longer with you (I am sorry for your loss) - but assuming he is older, bear in mind, hipscores have fallen to a degree - and what could have been widely acceptable then would require more careful consideration (but not necessarily exclusion) now.

As for breeding from close family members, providing it is not siblings / half siblings, parents etc this is far from unusual in line breeding kennels which sit in the show, working and commercial breeder pet world, not to mention a large majority of aspiring hobby breeders. Remember, a kennel that knows its lines inside out linebreeding can be a far safer bet than a full outcross.

Good luck with your search.
 

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Chriseliz said:
I checked out the breeder where we got Brad from and all their dogs had very high hip scores!!.
Out of curiosity, what do you deem as "very high hip scores"?

Good luck with your search - there are lots of good breeders out there!



Vicki
 
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sue51 said:
Jules - the same goes for 'Affected' dogs for PRA providing they are mated to clears - all pups will be carriers and never affected.
Oooh yes...I forgot to add that bit. :oops: :lol: .

and were also breeding from very close family members.
As Sue said, this is line breeding...Di wrote a good explaination about it here... http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopict-12936.html

You'll find this in all pedigree dogs to some degree, although I have been a little shocked by how tight some pedigrees are (especially non Labs) and I know I have a Father to Daughter mating in the fourth gen of my Poodle :? .
 

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yes........ you got it right sue............. and di too.... to many confuse the issues while skiming numbers, rather then due diligence..... its a lenghty process to find a great pup..... if you have real interest... good luck to you.......
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
:D Thanks for replies. We're still quite a bit away from getting a pup. It's 12 years since we bought Brad, 3 yr old Jess is a rescue (cross breed). We were quite 'green' when we got Brad and didn't know anything about hip scores etc. However through this forum I've got alot of info (probably too much!!) and will be very careful, we don't know anybody who has bought a lab in the last few years so don't have anyone to recommend a breeder. So it will be by research and talking to and questioning breeders that we will get one.

One of the breeders I saw was breeding father to daughter then one of those pups to the mothers brother - surely that's a bit too close???!!! 8O
 

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It may be worth your while having a chat to one or more of the breeders on LF, they may not have pups but could hopefully let you know of people who may be having some around the time your thinking of getting another, it will be as good as word of mouth from someone who has bought a pup from a breeder :)
 

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There was one were were looking for a pup there was some of the breeder never got the dog hip score doing and the eye done ather and we said to them were not interested with your pups then and we phone and phone and there was a lot we phone had never got Any thing done then my dad told the breeder you have to get the hips and eyes done and they said no you don't and then we said yes you do a put the phone up but now we now were to get the good breeder now .
 

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" One of the breeders I saw was breeding father to daughter then one of those pups to the mothers brother - surely that's a bit too close???!!! "


If thats definately the mating you saw then yes that would be extremely unusual. It may have been an accidental mating if the kennel is otherwise reputable. Not all accidental matings are terminated because they are not known about until too late.

The first part - the father to daughter, at a competition or reputable kennel would be an accident I am absolutely certain. However mating a bitch to her Uncle, which is the second part of what you describe, is not unethical, it is good linebreeding (if the dogs involved are healthy - scored individuals).

It really has to be remembered, and Sue touched on it that even the widest possible outcross with not a single dog the same in five generations, will produce poor health almost certainly if the dogs involved are unhealthy! You could, however mate as close as you like on healthy dogs with no ill effect whatsoever if the dogs are healthy! (Not that almost anyone does this now in our breed, the gene pool size we have allows us not to have to generally).

Doubling up on healthy sound good quality specimins of the breed is GOOD. You have to remove your human mind from the idea of your daughter producing offspring from her human uncle (I know, of course that would be abborant).

In the wild, packs of dogs and wolves would reproduce father to daughter, mother to son generation after generation lets not forget. Ok we tend to step away from that idea in domestic dogs, but it needs bearing in mind before hands get thrown up in the air about 'close matings'.

Good luck in your search. i see you are in Rotherham. Rachel Williams, who is Willibob on the forum lives in Rotherham and would be able to advise you extremely responsibly. I hope she sees this.

Di
 

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good luck in your search for your lab puppy, i found Alfie through phoning Madisons breeder, her not having puppies available and her knowing someone who might..

Sometimes it can be a phone call to one breeder and they can point you in the right direction.
 

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It can be so much of a minefield, and particulaly for someone with a little learning. It's so easy to come up with a set of "Rules," but when you actually get down to facts, it's not always easy to justify those rules. Take close breeding as an example. A father to daughter mating is generally considdered far too close. Yet not that long ago some of the very best breeders, the breeders who shaped our breed, did just that from time to time in order to try to "Fix" certain traits. But look in the wild. Animals born within a pack will have been conceived within the pack and will in general mate within the pack and live out their life within the pack. So you can see, by and large, pack animals are VERY closely bred! Dont get me wrong, this is not intended as an excuse for rank bad breeding, But if a responsible breeder who I was looking at for a puppy did this then I would be very interested to learn the thinking behind the mating.

But then look at hips. As Di said, the average labrador hip score is 15, but to then think that anything over 15 is bad, well, just think about that for a moment. If 15 is the average then that means that something like half the total Labradors are better than average and half are worse. Yet nothing like half of all labradors have bad hips! The actual figure is probably much nearer 1% than 50%. No, The BMS is just an arbitary figure which shows the current state of the breed rather than a good/no good figure.

Regards, John
 

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It's always worth ringing experianced breeders with questions you are not sure about, I breed myself but have 2-3 more experianced people I know I can call when I have a question I need answering, like this morning regarding optigen who rang back with in the hour with the answer after she rang her guru lol.

If I've learnt anything is dont take things at face value but look into and get advice from someone more experianced and you can trust and respect. You can learn an awful lot that way. Just like I did this morning and now feel very clever along with the lady I called, (you know who you are) :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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;-)

Funny handshake, funny handshake ;-)

Di x
 

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Hi....

If you want to chat about breeders in the area, give me a ring or drop me a line, the contact details are on my website, which you can link to at the bottom of this post. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for all advice, our heads are spinning at the moment with too much info!! I thought getting another lab would be simple!! We're going away for a few days, so will probably get stuck in to finding one when we get back.


Also our youngest son has just phoned to say he is coming home from France, where he lives, for a few weeks, and I'm not sure I can cope with him and a pup at the same time - a pup would probably be more house trained and far quieter, wouldn't get drunk (hopefully) or create mounds of washing, or produce several mates who would all like bacon sandwiches for breakfast, or have girls phoning for him at all hours. It would be good if we could fasten him in a crate!! (It's all in the breeding!)
 
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