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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I hope I'm posting this in the correct section. So glad to have come accross such a great forum!

I'm getting my first every puppy soon and decided on a lab a while ago, so I've been doing as much research as I can on labs and I'm very glad on my choice of dog to get. I've never had a dog before so still not too sure on a couple of things, I'm going to see a litter tomorrow and possibly pay a deposit, in the advert where I had seen them advertised it says they are "PPRC registered" - what does this mean? I've heard of KC Registered, but not PPRC.

Also, they are advertised as "Golden Labrador Puppies", from what I've been reading though you can get Golden Retrievers or Yellow/Chocolate/Black labradors, what's the difference?

The breeder sounds quite friendly and says both parents can be seen.

Thanks for any help :)
 

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Hi there. Run away as fast as your trainers can manage ;-)

You are quite right Labradors only come in Yellow, Black and Chocolate (or sometimes this is officially called Liver) so 'Golden' Labradors shows such an extreme amount of inexperience or ignorance for someone breeding a litter of puppies that its always quite breathtaking. A novice owner might make this mistake, but for someone who has chosen to breed a litter to know so little about a breed that they even get a fundemental basic such as colour wrong, its very scarey.

Secondly the registry they mention is a sham/fake registry. It is set up purely to try and catch out and make a few quid from unsuspecting buyers who think the pups are legitimate and therefore KC registered.

KC registration isn't the be all and the end all especially when people only wish for a pet and not to breed or show what they buy but there is one very good reason to buy a KC registered puppy...... even just as a pet....

.... only around 1% of parents of UNREGISTERED litters are health scored under the essential schemes that are run by the BVA, the hip score and eye testing scheme. There is no compulsion to use these schemes to register puppies with the KC, BUT around half of all who do HAVE used the schemes where as almost noone who does not register the litter has (or registers it with one of several fake/misleading registries).

So three things to look for:

1) KC registered puppies
2) Hip score for BOTH parents and you can view the certifiate (ideally both parents to score around or under a total of '15' each - the score is clearly shown on the certificate)
3) CURRENT (so dated in the last 12 months) Clear eye certificate for both parents (and you can see the certificate).

never settle for less than that. many many breeders of good pet puppies offer lots MORE. That is the bare minimum.

Di
 

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From googling, the PPRC stands for: Pedigree Pets Registration Club and they proudly :roll: state on the site:

"Tired of registration and documents hassle?
Lost or never had papers? Breed not recognised?
PPRC registers all purebred dogs.
Want to save money on registration fees?

Less paperwork - Complete only one form for complete litter registration."

Not that any of my dogs have papers, they're rescues/rehomes, but if I were looking to buy a puppy rather than rescue, I'd look for all that Di mentions. Do have a good think before you go to see the puppies because once you've seen a litter of cute little Lab pups it will be a lot harder to walk away!
 

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Hello and welcome aboard :wave:

I've never heard of this type of registration, so the cynic in me automatically smells a rat. The only 'official' registration is KC. The other one you might see sometimes is Dog Lovers Registration (DLR). I don't want to put you off.... but if it was me, I'd stick 110% clear of any litters that aren't eligible for KC registration. Reasons for not being eligible can include: the bitch being too young to have a litter, having had too many litters, being too old to have a litter, one or both parents not being KC reg'd themselves etc. Some 'breeders' may say that they're doing you a favour in not KC registering them - but in reality it only costs them £12 a pup, so do don't buy that one.

There's no such thing as a Golden Lab. You're right Golden Retrievers or Labrador Retrievers in Black, Yellow, Chocolate. Now, a lot of people refer to yellow labs as golden. I don't really have a problem with this.... BUT, a breeder advertising pups as Golden, kind of makes me think that the breeder is likely to be absolutely lovely, but doesn't really fully know his/her stuff when it comes to labs IMO.

Being really honest with you - I'd walk away from this litter.

You want to find a litter that's: KC reg, and both parents hip scored (ideally below 15 in total), and both have current clear eye certificates as an absolute minimum.

Check out www.lab-health.co.uk and also the sticky posts in the puppy section. There are posts there about what to look for in a litter, what questions to ask a breeder etc. If you also have a look at the breeding section on the KC website, you'll see what the criteria is for pups to be eligible for KC reg, and that'll give you a feel for the reasons why not all litters can be registered! When you do go and see a litter, make sure you see copies of the health test certificates.

I really hope the above hasn't come across as 'doom and gloom' but I'd definitely steer clear of a 'golden lab' litter that aren't KC reg'd.

Whatever you decide though.... please post piccies when you get your wee bundle of cuteness - puppy pics are a must on here :lol: :D

Good luck in your search for a puppy :D
 

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Just to give a guide, for a thoughtfully bred pet puppy of our breed from a half decent breeder you will be looking, depending on where you are in the country at between about £550 and £700. Any less, other than in the wilds of remote places who have to sell for less because the buyers they could attract are so few and far between, you will always have something 'missing' if (much) cheaper. Bargains do not exist, there is always a reason they are £250/£350.... usually that the parents are not health scored.

Healthscoring and eye testing is essential to you as a buyers because these problems are well known and genetic to varying degrees. So therefore at least if you know for sure that both parents are healthy (and not just taking the breeders word on that, the schemes give it from experts) you start with the best possible chance of your puppy being so long into old age.

This link may help to gently work these questions into conversations with breeders to sort the wheat from the chaff...

http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopict-27456.html

Di
 

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Sorry! Lastly.... because its so misunderstood sometimes...:

The thing is, 'nice' people can be 'rubbish' breeders. They aren't always even meaning to be, it is often out of ignorance, but for a 14 year investment of love (and a fair chunk of cash!), you need to start with a good breeder rather than a nice one. If you know what I mean....

Some of the best breeders are not the most 'people friendly' folks in the world, but the pups are fantastic and they have done their homework and all they can to breed a pup to be proud of, which is what counts in the end! ;-)

Di
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you for all the quick replies. I think I'll email the breeder today with some questions and then most likely continue my search! I'd rather wait for the right one than just take one for the sake of it. They're priced at £300 for a dog and £350 for a bitch (I'm in Scotland...). There is a pic of the pups and on the advert but I'm no expert so not sure if they're labs or not. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the photo here since it's not my photo.
 

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That would be the average price for unregistered, unhealthscored puppies, pretty much anywhere. Really, I wouldn't waste your time, if the parents were healthscored she would have sung it in the advert. Folks are proud when they have done things well...

the trouble is sometimes these people, in knowing they have done things poorly or shabbily, will give you all sorts of 'blarney' about why this isn't done and why that wasn't done, and why they called them 'golden' and this that and the other. I would take the advert at face value as a badly bred litter and look elsewhere.

You might have a travel a bit for a well bred litter... but its always worth it.

Di
 

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I'm in Scotland too :D Some of the Scottish LF folk meet up now and again to take the dogs for a hooly on the beach etc. You'd be more than welcome to come along too!

As a guide - I paid £500 for my pup. I think that's about right for this neck of the woods. My pup came from essentially a pet breeder, but KC reg'd, hip scored etc. However, she still wasn't the best breeder I could've found. She was a lovely person and the pups were reared in the house and couldn't have been cared for better.... but she was far from being a labrador boffin and hadn't done all the health tests, provided extensive puppy pack etc.

Anyway, I digress....

What I was wanting to say is.... I'd also walk away from any litter where the price differs between dog and bitch. There's really no need for that, other than money making if they think there's more demand for bitches so ooooh we'll charge a bit more for them. Or in a mixed colour litter, charging more for one colour over another. £300-350 is too cheap. You might get a decent pup for £450 (I know some of the working dog breeders in these parts charge 450 for pups), but really, I'd think £500-600 is more the norm for a well-bred etc pup.
 

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This is another link which may help - and more importantly at the end it has the telephone number of the secretary of the Labrador Club of Scotland. She will definately be able to put you onto good breeders. Its a quiet time of year for puppies most places because noone likes having a bitch with pups in the long dark winter (and bitches being mated now will have pups ready to go mid december) so you may have to wait a few weeks before finding a waiting list to go on of a good 'sort'. Litters of 5 and 6 and 7 weeks of age all still avaliable really show that breeder is either desperately unlucky or there is a question mark about the litter, usually healthscoring.

Link with Lab club of scotland details....
http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopict-17368.html

Di
 

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" As a guide - I paid £500 for my pup. I think that's about right for this neck of the woods. My pup came from essentially a pet breeder, but KC reg'd, hip scored etc. However, she still wasn't the best breeder I could've found. She was a lovely person and the pups were reared in the house and couldn't have been cared for better.... but she was far from being a labrador boffin "


... chuckle. No and its important to make the point above. That plenty of lovely pet pups come from pet bitches bred from. There isn't any need to be or buy from a 'labardor boffin' or someone who competes with their dogs. its not trying to channel anyone as that being the only sort of good breeder. Its just pups raised with care, and planning, using decent terminology that makes you feel they do at least know one end of a dog from another, and most importantly that they have at least used the hip and eye health schemes. There is no huge need to use more than those, but they are an absolute minimum even for the most 'pet of pet' breeders... and show some respect to the pups they are producing and the people who buy them.

Great point Mo!

Di
 

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I'm going to go a wee bit off topic here, but it *might* be of relevance to the OP, so bear with me whittering on!!!

When I got my pup, I thought all I wanted was a pet. I also had a job (still do thankfully :wink:) and many of the lab breeders' websites scared the bejesus out of me when they seemed to have a criteria list as long as their arm about who they considered suitable buyers. I think in hindsight it was just my insecurities, but I honestly looked at them and thought "oh god, they'll NEVER let me buy one of their pups.... I work, I live alone, I don't have a huge house and garden, I'm a BAD person!!!!' So, that's how I ended up where I did! I emailed some breeders with the fancy dancy websites and didn't get any replies.... this confirmed to me that I was unsuitable for them! Needless to say, there could've been a zillion and one reasons for their lack of replies. I KNOW I'm a good dog owner :D

The ramble continues....

I always knew I wanted to go to training with my pet dog.... maybe obedience, agility??? Not sure, but knew I wanted to do something, for fun, and I wanted to make sure I raised a good-mannered dog.

So fast forward to 6,7,8 months and I started to find out about gun dog training, discovered the Gundog Club website, and the wonder that is LF and the FT&H section. Yeee and Haaaa THIS is what I want to do with my pup. Small problem: my pup is pet bred and working lines are practically non-existent in her pedigree. So.... it's been an uphill struggle to get going with gundog training because she just doesn't *have* it in the same way that working lines dogs do.

So.... to add in to the mix, it's maybe worth also having a think about what you'd like to do with your pup. I truly believed I just wanted a pet.... but was rapidly bitten by the bug of doing something more!
 
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I hope you dont mind me butting in to all this expert advice, but as a new puppy owner who found a fantastic breeder (dont want to make Tracy big headed!) I would also say DONT go and see them because it is absolutely guaranteed you will fall in love with one, especially if the conditions arent ideal and may spend many years going through the worry of health problems.

Jayne x
 

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To be quite honest - from what you've said thus far combined with the excellent advice above - DON'T email the breeder - look elsewhere - there are lots of LF members north of the border who will be happy to help you find a good breeder :D

Contact the Lab Club of Scotland - they should be able to help

LABRADOR CLUB OF SCOTLAND. Sec. Miss Farquarson. Tel No: 01382 459099
www.lab.scot.btinternet.co.uk
 

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Diana said:
Litters of 5 and 6 and 7 weeks of age all still avaliable really show that breeder is either desperately unlucky or there is a question mark about the litter, usually healthscoring.
I think that is a GROSSLY unfair statement Di - I still had a pup left from my first litter at 9 weeks - despite having a larger waiting list than pups born.

I also know a lot of other breeders (some very high profile) who have struggled to home pups despite there not being a problem with health tests of their reputation - people who read these forums as you know take a LOT of stuff verbatim and read it to the letter of the law - guaranteed impacting on their thought processes where breeders do have older pups left.

I've got a waiting list for this litter which has taken my breath away - and fending off enquries at a rate of knots - BUT - because the litter is not colour guaranteed - and knowing how difficult black pups can be to shift from my own (and other's experiences) - if my litter is predominantly black, I can almost guarantee I will have pups left by 8 or 9 weeks never mind 3 or 4 - despite EVERY recommended health test and more being done on both parents - yes it would be easier to sell a whole chocolate litter - BUT - I breed for me and improvement of my dogs - colour is secondary.
 

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Sue read it again - I said had ALL pups still avaliable... I didn't say one or two.

Di
 

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OK I missed the ALL - however, I DO know of breeders who believed they had a solid waiting list and updated them right the way through - only being told at that point they have changed their minds or got a pup elsewhere :( surprisingly common.

When I mated Hopey I had a large waiting list - and (particularly in the current climate) - no less than three of those have contacted me saying their circumstances have changed and they can no longer have pups.

A lot of established breeders also interestingly do not keep waiting lists as I found while trying to find a pup - and as breeders are entitled to pick and choose where their pups go - that is their right.

But waiting lists can and do break down :( Geographically as well - I often turn people away, simply because I direct them to good breeders much closer to home.

But I've known first time breeders AND well established breeders loose their whole waiting lists - a lot being down to thinking you've sold the pups and people being afraid to be honest right up to the last minute (which is what happened with my last black boy from my first litter)
 

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" OK I missed the ALL - however, I DO know of breeders who believed they had a solid waiting list and updated them right the way through - only being told at that point they have changed their minds or got a pup elsewhere surprisingly "
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Of course. I deal with selling these cancelled pups all the time for our litters or the stud litters. Its a headache, but a common one, as you say. This year in this climate of change and unrest its been a uber-problemo and most litters end up with 'single-pup-itis' at 5, 6, 7 weeks or later.

Di
 

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Diana said:
the trouble is sometimes these people, in knowing they have done things poorly or shabbily, will give you all sorts of 'blarney' about why this isn't done and why that wasn't done, and why they called them 'golden' and this that and the other. I would take the advert at face value as a badly bred litter and look elsewhere.

You might have a travel a bit for a well bred litter... but its always worth it.

Di
100% agree with this.

I would just not reply to that breeder as they could tell you anything you want to hear.

Draw a line under it and start your search again.

Brilliant advice from Di and worth taking every word on board.

Good luck and rest assured you'll find the right pup in good time... these things happen for a reason. :)
 
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