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Old 21-02-2017, 12:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default So who makes what

With MWH announcing that they are putting up they're prices I thought I'd look around and see if there were cheaper alternatives without compromising Mason's health.

I was a bit shocked to learn that nearly all Kibble brands are made by the same manufacturing company and anyone can go to them and start their own brand of dried dog food. They have a libary of packaging that you can choose from. They have 70 recipes to choose from. They will even produce package and deliver directly a single bag to your customers door.

The only thing you need to do is decide how much you want to charge for it.

Some brands say they are bespoke recipes which I have no reason to doubt. However I don't like the less than transparent nature of the way they portray themselves.

They often have quaint little 'about us' stories about how they are a small family business or what have you. Why can't they say we decided to sell dog food and went to these guys to produce it.

The two news stories I've attached show what I mean - reading MWH's story you would be forgiven for thinking they bought this machine and produce their own kibble.

Are we paying 14 more per bag when we could get the exact same kibble for less buy choosing a different brand.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture.JPG (47.4 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg CountryKibbleLamb.JPG (53.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg growlLamb.JPG (50.6 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg walking the dog.JPG (38.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg myanimalLamb.JPG (52.0 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg millies.JPG (40.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg ga.JPG (46.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Capture1.JPG (125.8 KB, 16 views)

Last edited by Paddy2014; 21-02-2017 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 21-02-2017, 04:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Very interesting work there Paddy

As I was reading your post I was thinking this sounded familiar for some reason. But it's just come to me. It was on one of those "How It's Made" programs. There was one with a segment on dog food/kibble. It shows the mixing vats in a big factory, the extruder machines spitting out the pellets and ovens or dryers. The narration was something like "the recipes are to the clients specification" "the pellets can be different sizes and shapes depending on the clients specification" or words to that effect.

I get where you are coming from, I suppose I'm a bit numb to it all though as so much stuff its outsourced nowadays I take a lot of this stuff behind the scenes stuff for granted. A silly example would be Post Office Broadband. It doesn't exist as anything beyond a virtual brand. They are wholesaling Talk Talk broadband, they could at least add some value on the customer services/billing side but no they have that part outsourced to Capita!

Or I buy a tin of Sainsbury's baked beans. Did Sainsbury's make them? Or do they come from Kraft or Unilever with a Sainsburys label stuck on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy2014 View Post
Are we paying 14+ per bag when we could get the exact same kibble for less buy choosing a different brand.
Are you sure you haven't got the 1 and 4 the wrong way round there?

ASSUMING the Millies production is outsourced then the question has to be are they using off-the shelf recipies or are they their own (they could be no?).

You'll have to do a bit more home work to see if you can find their recipies on any other brands! It could conceivably still be a bespoke recipe but made elsewhere.

Think about globalisation too. We might find a small brand in another country with similar, but delivery charges would be prohibitive, so in a way they are still doing us a favour by taking care of the importation so we can buy easily in the UK.

On a related note, have any other Millies fans ever noticed there is a US Co. with that name too :

https://store.millieswolfheartusa.com/dog-food-recipes/

I wonder who's buying from who? When I found the above it did make me ponder on the "Millies Wolfheart is a small family run business in the Yorkshire Dales".

But they do also specifically say "Millies Wolfheart recipes are not off the shelf products, they are our own bespoke recipes", so if taken at their word I think I've just answered my own question.
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Old 21-02-2017, 05:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John_n_Gemma View Post
Very interesting work there Paddy

As I was reading your post I was thinking this sounded familiar for some reason. But it's just come to me. It was on one of those "How It's Made" programs. There was one with a segment on dog food/kibble. It shows the mixing vats in a big factory, the extruder machines spitting out the pellets and ovens or dryers. The narration was something like "the recipes are to the clients specification" "the pellets can be different sizes and shapes depending on the clients specification" or words to that effect.

I get where you are coming from, I suppose I'm a bit numb to it all though as so much stuff its outsourced nowadays I take a lot of this stuff behind the scenes stuff for granted. A silly example would be Post Office Broadband. It doesn't exist as anything beyond a virtual brand. They are wholesaling Talk Talk broadband, they could at least add some value on the customer services/billing side but no they have that part outsourced to Capita!

Or I buy a tin of Sainsbury's baked beans. Did Sainsbury's make them? Or do they come from Kraft or Unilever with a Sainsburys label stuck on?



Are you sure you haven't got the 1 and 4 the wrong way round there?

ASSUMING the Millies production is outsourced then the question has to be are they using off-the shelf recipies or are they their own (they could be no?).

You'll have to do a bit more home work to see if you can find their recipies on any other brands! It could conceivably still be a bespoke recipe but made elsewhere.

Think about globalisation too. We might find a small brand in another country with similar, but delivery charges would be prohibitive, so in a way they are still doing us a favour by taking care of the importation so we can buy easily in the UK.

On a related note, have any other Millies fans ever noticed there is a US Co. with that name too :

https://store.millieswolfheartusa.com/dog-food-recipes/

I wonder who's buying from who? When I found the above it did make me ponder on the "Millies Wolfheart is a small family run business in the Yorkshire Dales".

But they do also specifically say "Millies Wolfheart recipes are not off the shelf products, they are our own bespoke recipes", so if taken at their word I think I've just answered my own question.


Millies wolfheart uk was started first by Mark and June Milner, Millies USA is also part of the family

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Old 21-02-2017, 05:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ahh haaa
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Old 21-02-2017, 07:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ha - the 14+ per bag was meant to be 14 more per bag (I've edited the post)

The idea behind this post is not meant to be directed against MWH. Mason has been thriving on it since I realized he was allergic to chicken.

The bulk of the attachments are of the same recipe made by the same firm but branded for different customers and they range from 29 to 45 for what is essentially a different name on the bag.

The MWH attachment is to illustrate how we get drawn in to a 'story' that is written to add value to the product.
'Was started as a small family run business' could equally be written as 'one day I found a company that produces dog kibble and will allow me to tweak the recipe a bit and sell as my own so the wife and I gave up work and started selling it'

The MWH attachment say 'we use the worlds first twin bla bla to make our food' technically true but more precisely 'The company that makes the kibble for us uses the worlds first bla bla'

Again it draws us in as customers to think I don't mind paying a premium because they obviously care about their product that the are pioneers when it comes to equipment - not really because every other brand that it made at this factory is using the same technology.

I had a quick look at the ingredients for MWH Lamb & Veg and Country Kibbles Lamb, Sweet potato & Mint.
MWH is currently 36.99 (about to have price increase) Country Kibble 29.99 (already had brexit increase)

Now the list of ingredients are similar for the major items but then MHW lists a impressive number of items such as burdock root and dried cranberries. No amounts of these items are listed so they must be trace. Country Kibble, once past the main ingredients list 'vegetable stock' what this means I don't know but might be Burdock root and dried cranberries for all I know.

The additives are very similar with regards items and quantities.

Finally the crude analysis shows County Kibble has more crude protein and slightly less crude fat with the rest of the analysis almost identical.

Now I am not a nutritionist but I can't see where the 7 (soon to be more) difference in price comes from.

Country Kibble Lamb, Sweet potato and Mint
Ingredients: Lamb 50% (including 30% Freshly Prepared Lamb, 18% Dried Lamb, 2% Lamb Stock), Sweet Potato (23%), Peas, Pea Protein, Potato (6%), Linseed, Beet Pulp, Omega 3 Supplement, Vitamins & Minerals, Vegetable Stock, Mint (equivalent to 7.5g per Kg of product), FOS (92 mg/kg), MOS (23 mg/kg).

Nutritional Additives: Vitamins; Vitamin A (as retinyl acetate) 15,000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 (as cholecalciferol) 2,250 IU/kg, Vitamin E (as alpha tocopherol acetate) 160 mg/kg.

Trace Elements: Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate 130 mg/kg, Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 160 mg/kg, Manganous Sulphate Monohydrate 110 mg/kg, Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate 60 mg/kg, Calcium Iodate Anhydrous 1.58 mg/kg, Sodium Selenite 0.60 mg/kg.

Analysis: Crude Protein 26%, Crude Oil and Fats 14%, Crude Fibres 3%, Crude Ash 8.9%, Moisture 8%, NFE 40%, Metabolisable Energy 354 Kcal/100g, Omega 6 2.20%, Omega 3 1.79%, Calcium 2.41%, Phosphorus 1.50%

Compared to;

Millies Wolfheart Lamb & Veg
Composition: 50% Lamb (including 24% Freshly Prepared Lamb, 17% Dried Lamb, 8% Lamb Fat & 1% Lamb Gravy), Sweet Potato, Potato, Tapioca, Chick Pea Flour, Pea Fibre, Tomato Pomace, Minerals, Vitamins, Glucosamine (175 mg/kg), Methylsulfonylmethane (175 mg/kg), Chondroitin Sulphate (125 mg/kg), Dried Apple, Dried Carrot, Lovage Powder, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Seaweed Meal, Dried Cranberry, Camomile Powder, Burdock Root Powder, Peppermint, Dandelion, Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley.

Vitamins: Vitamin A (as retinyl acetate) 14,425 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 (as cholecalciferol) 2,160 IU/kg, Vitamin E (as tocopherol acetate) 95 mg/kg
Trace Elements: Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 160 mg/kg, Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate 130 mg/kg, Manganese Sulphate Monohydrate 105 mg/kg, Calcium Iodate Anhydrate 1.5 mg/kg, Sodium Selenite 0.6 mg/kg

Analytical Constituents: Crude Protein 19%, Crude Oils and Fats 17%, Crude Fibres 3.5%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture 8%, Omega 6 1.9%, Omega 3 0.7%, Calcium 2.1%, Phosphorus 1.1%

Last edited by Paddy2014; 21-02-2017 at 07:46 PM. Reason: edited because i cant do simple maths
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Old 21-02-2017, 08:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Just had a quick nosey at the ingrediants. I know the lamb and veg is quite a new recipe from Millies.

This is info for the country kibble



And then Millies, I copied and pasted all the ingrediants so not sure why not all there



Any food that has anything in red, I won't buy but that's just my personal preference. I do prefer a higher meat content too but again that's just my preference.

I suppose a food is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I would definitely rather pay 50 a bag for Millies than 50 for a bag of Royal canin. Now that's a poor quality expensive food!


I do know that country kibble also sellrhe same food but named 'walking the dog'
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Old 21-02-2017, 10:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Last year a herbalist I use started a fantastic new grain free food, 50/50 composition at 45 for a 15kg sack. When I started looking at similar recipes I found that there were at least 20 different brands all using the same recipe but with different labels (most of the labels shown above) and some were significantly cheaper. I discovered, like Paddy, that you can put your own name on all these foods which are all made by one supplier.

However, I have yet to find other foods with identical ingredients lists to MWH for the same price. It does leave you questioning where the foods are made and if they really do live up to all the claims that the sellers are making.
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Old 21-02-2017, 10:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ttfan1978 View Post
Any food that has anything in red, I won't buy but that's just my personal preference. I do prefer a higher meat content too but again that's just my preference.

I suppose a food is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I would definitely rather pay 50 a bag for Millies than 50 for a bag of Royal canin. Now that's a poor quality expensive food!


I do know that country kibble also sellrhe same food but named 'walking the dog'
Hi ttfan1978

Country Kibble don't actually sell the same food as under the name 'Walking the dog'.

They are two separate companies that buy the exact same kibble from the same supplier that produces kibble for MWH.

Thats what I'm getting at here. I could ask GA to produce a 12kg bag of kibble to the exact same recipe as Country Kibble or Walk the Dog or Growling Tums. Its up to me if I charge 29 per 12kg or 46 per 12kg. The food is the same its the profit the individual company wants to make thats the only difference.

Bespoke is also in the eye of the beholder. I could go to GA and say I want your lamb recipe but instead of 30% fresh lamb, 18% dried and 2% Lamb fat. I want 24% fresh 17% dried lamb and 8% lamb fat. Not only is this cheaper but I can legitimately say its bespoke.

Allaboutdogfood is a great site but without user interpretation its analysis tool can be misleading.

It flagged up the pea protein in red and marked down the rating accordingly.

The problem with that is in the automated interpretation. The allaboutdogfood site says of pea protein;

"Pea protein is a byproduct of pea processing and is used as a protein source in some dog foods. Although it is far less expensive, we don't think pea protein should be used as an alternative to meat in dog foods since the quality and digestibility of vegetable proteins tend to fall a long way short of those found in meats."

That is fair enough pea protein is not as good as meat protein. It doesn't say its bad like gluten or grains are. Its just a poor substitute for meat protein. However both MWH and Country Kibble have the same amount of meat and therefore meat protein. The pea protein while a cheap source of protein is in addition to the equal meat protein.

In fact the Country Kibble has more fresh meat protein than MWH.

Now I'm not trying to convert people away from MWH - its a great food. All I'm saying is there are foods out there produced in the same factory by the same staff using pretty much the same ingredients for what will probably be two thirds the price.

I know people have invested in their dogs food and won't be swayed. I'm the same with my guitar amp. I will alway pay the premium for the amp thats volume dial goes to 11.
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Old 21-02-2017, 10:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I suppose at the end of the day it's down to personal choice for all of us. When we were planning to get Cola I researched a lot of foods. I narrowed my choices down to Acana, Eden, Millies and Simpsons 80/20

I looked at foods that were rated no less than 4/5 and with none of the 'red' details. If I like the ingrediants in a food and it agrees with Cola then that's that's the most important things for me. Yes price is of course important but it's not my main consideration.

I use 3 different Millies recipes and they are both rated very highly.

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/do...t-highland-mix
https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/do...ountryside-mix
https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/in...ood-review.php

What I found with Millies when contacting them about their foods, they did not pressure me into buying their food and certainly didn't tell me their food 'was the best available' unlike Simpsons.

I looked through their website so many times before buying and read it all back to front. If they say they started off as a small family business then I believe that. You never know, maybe they did I try not to be cynical

I pay a premium for a lot of things, my husband is sometimesnot always best pleased :]
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Last edited by ttfan1978; 21-02-2017 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 21-02-2017, 10:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Coco-Loco View Post
Last year a herbalist I use started a fantastic new grain free food, 50/50 composition at 45 for a 15kg sack. When I started looking at similar recipes I found that there were at least 20 different brands all using the same recipe but with different labels (most of the labels shown above) and some were significantly cheaper. I discovered, like Paddy, that you can put your own name on all these foods which are all made by one supplier.

However, I have yet to find other foods with identical ingredients lists to MWH for the same price. It does leave you questioning where the foods are made and if they really do live up to all the claims that the sellers are making.

MWH is made in the same factory as the labels in my first post. As for recipe no the two I listed are not identical but they are close. The vitamin and trace elements could have been cut and pasted from one brand to the other. The main ingredients are also pretty much the same albeit the Country Kibble has a higher fresh meat percentage.

We all want to believe that we are feeding our dog the best (which I think we are) I just think some of us are paying more for the 'best' than others.

We all want to imagine that our dogs kibble came about from years of experimentation in a small kitchen in a picturesque cottage by a dog lover who isn't in it for the money. In reality its probably the case hat someone got board working in a office and went to a kibble maker and said I'll have some of that - in one of those sacks and can you print 'Mason's Wonder Food' on it please.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to go to the factory that make MWH, Lily's Kitchen, Country Kibble or pretty much any brand you can think of and say can I do that, then here is a brochure telling you all you need;

http://www.ga-petfoodpartners.co.uk/...ure%202016.pdf
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