Need ideas/thoughts - Disgraceful behaviour

Diana

Further to Vicki's post a few weeks back on breeders acting disgracefully when asked to remove the 'progeny not to be registered' endorsement, I have touched closely on an even more unbelieveable set of circumstances in the last two days and wondered if the gathered minds of the forum can throw anything new into the 'think tank' as we are nearly out of ideas.

It shows how bad things can happen to good people. No names dates or places will be used although I HATE protecting the guilty parties here but needs must.

Couple buy a decently bred labrador bitch 3 years ago from someone relatively local. Puppy comes with all all the right boxes ticked. Kennel club reg, parents hip and elbow scored and eye tested, decent price for the time, not too high, not too low.

When they pick her up at 8 weeks they are given what they think is a responsible pack of everything they need including diet sheet etc etc.

Fast forward 2 years and they think through and decide to have a litter with her. They consider breeder will support them through this as seems responsible. They hip and elbow score her, eye test her and ring the breeders with this information. Breeder asks about stud dogs, they go and do some more research and find my Deeds, some here, have a long talk, take copies of all his documents away, call the breeder she fully approves and says she will life the progeny not to be registered endorsement. Owner sends breeder copies of everything. Owner checks sometime later if it is lifted, it is, bingo.

Mating, pregnancy, puppies. Submit Registration of puppies to KC.

Letter back from from KC to say that the puppies cannot be registered because the Dam is NOT IN THE NAME OF THE OWNER BUT THE BREEDER.

Owner rings me in a panic, how can this be? She bought a KC reg puppy, was given the documents how can she not be 'hers'?

I asked if she had transferred her into her name at the kennel club. No she had not. Why had she not? Because when she purchased the puppy the breeder had cleverly photocopied the registration documents so it showed only the front page of the KC documentation and therefore there WAS no form on the back to do a 'change of ownership'. Now as experienced owners we might all think 'yeah but like a car you have to change ownership duh!!!' but imagine, your first KC registered dog, if the form wasn't there, OR explained to you by the breeder, would you think something was missing? These are sensible middle aged intelligent people with a wonderful attitude to life. If they'd had an inkling they would have done it.

So of course, they immediately call the bitches breeder. Bitches breeder says sweetly 'of course i'll give the original documents and let you take KC ownership...... for two bitch puppies from your litter'.....

Well A) that is blackmail. B) That is the last place in the world they would let a puppy of theirs go as in the meantime they have found out this woman has a terrible reputation and is churning out litters like nothing on earth and C) They are all sold.

Rings bitches breeder again to try and be reasonable, speaks to the husband who demands the cash if not the puppies, so around £1200. Bear in mind if they did pay up who's to say the breeders would go through with signing the form.

So bitch owner rings the KC, they say if it was a dispute over the endorsement then they could help but not over transfer of ownership because that is a private matter. They give her a legal helpline however which she calls.

The KC advised legal helpline at £1.60 a minute tell her that she is stupid not to have known that her documents weren't genuine and its her own fault she got in this mess and that the original breeder just has 'good business sense' to take advantage of this womans ignorance and they should just pay up. Nice.

So now this woman who has puppies going *soon* has this to contend with and seemingly nowhere to go other than to give into the worst sort of possible explotation and blackmail by scum.

Having checked at the KC all the litter sisters of her bitch have not been transferred but all the dogs have, hence seeming that this couple do this regularly or plan it for the odd person, who at the start they appear to be doing all they can to support, breeding from their bitch, and with all the health tests demanded, and decent stud dogs used and approved, seemingly encourage them to do it the *right* way.....!

This is potting it down a bit of course but anyone, legally or morally see any room for manover here? As breeders what would be YOUR next step?

Obviously we have discussed hitmen but sadly ruled them out Wink

Di

_Suzy_ · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:13 am Post subject:

Thats disgracful!!

Sadly Di, your last line of "Obviously we have discussed hitmen but sadly ruled them out" has just stumped my only suggestion Wink

Me personally, if I was getting nowhere (which clearly they are) with the breeders, then I would take what documents, receipts etc down to my solicitor, and let them deal with it. Sadly that would cost £££'s, but I would rather spend money this way round, than handing it over to the breeder due to blackmail.

Another thing that I would do (before solicitor) would be to turn up on their doorstep and deal with it head on with them, but I am a bolshy bitch, so might not be a good move for most people...

If you remember, had troubles with chesters breeders re parents certs etc, and I turned up on their doorstep (they were a 3 hour drive away so prob thought they were safe! Shocked

)

daizydoggy · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:13 am Post subject:

Jeez THAT is disgraceful!!!!

Only two thoughts I have in terms of "what to do" would be to seek legal advice from a solicitor (as opposed to a legal helpline). In fact, don't most home insurance policies have a legal assistance thing? Surely if they bought the pup and it's been living with them for 3 yrs as theirs then in the eyes of the law it IS theirs and they should be able to register it as such??

Secondly, if it was me, there's no way on earth I would hand over the puppies or the money, and I would prefer to sell the pups as unregistered at a reduced cost to make sure they went to good homes and this "breeder" doesn't rip the couple off.

It all sounds like a nightmare. Sad

Vicki

rach_willibob · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:16 am Post subject:

OMG!!!!!

How disgraceful.... I am livid just reading it! Twisted Evil

I don't know about the legalities, i.e. whether there is anything that would cover this under the "sale of goods" legislation etc. and I suspect that going down any legal route would take time and money, especially given what the KC legal helpline has said (not that I agree with this, but time is of the essence here).

In this situation I would prioritise getting the bitch's legal ownership changed and the pups KC registered as the most important thing... which would enable the people to then cut ties with the bitch's breeder.

Personally, I would be looking to negotiate with the bitch's breeder about a more reasonable "price" for the original documents - now this may be seen as the "bad guy" winning, but to me its more important that the bitch is tranferred into 'my' ownership and that the pups are able to be registered... I really can't think of any other way round it Confused

Diana · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am Post subject:

In addition, something that has only sprung to mind whilst typing this is that when the bitch came for mating (and visited beforehand) I saw her hip and eye certificates first hand - originals. They had the bitch owners at the top as they would... and those must have gone to the KC to be added to her records and so TWICE the KC missed that the certificates were stating one set of owners and the bitch was down at the KC as being still in the name of the breeders!

I'm not blaming the KC here but it goes to show they don't read the documents they are inputting. Even the most basic thing like name and address of owners! If they had picked up on this on either occasion (hips and eyes were done a year apart as she was not bred till 3 years of age) it would have saved all this heartache as the mating would never have gone ahead or the situation would have been looked into!

Sigh
Di

Becs · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:29 am Post subject:

I would first go and see the original breeder, with another person as a witness, and ask them to state their intentions infront of the witness, write down what they say, and then ask them to sign it.

I would then go to a solicitor and ask their opinion.

Maybe if the breeder see's that the person is serious about fighting it, they may back down?

I expect they have been getting away with it for some time and feel safe doing it.

Also, could the person 'name and shame' by writing to the dog-papers about it? Or even threaten to take it to one of those TV programs that investigates dodgy dealings?

I would imagine that the breeder would want to avoid public exposure.

BEcs and The Gang

Maddie · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:35 am Post subject:

Words fail me. I am shocked beyond belief.

_Lesley_ · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:36 am Post subject:

This is terrible and I feel so sorry for the couple in question.

I have to hold my hands up and say that if the breeder hadn't told us about the change of ownership form we wouldnt have known. Fidgit is our first KC registered pooch as we'd had x-breeds prior to her so some of you may be thinking how could you not have known like Diana said but I was one of those people.

If I was in this position, I hae to confess I'd be on thier doorstep straight away (with or without baseball bat would depend on what time of the month it was Evil or Very Mad

)
Failing this I'd go straight to a solicitior and get them to sort it out.

Cee · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:39 am Post subject:

Going right back to the beginning when the bitch was bred - isn't the breeder at fault for not handing over the correct documentation? The Registration document says quite clearly in capital letters on the top right ear of the document PASS THIS TO THE NEW OWNER

As you have established that the correct documentation was given to the dog puppies but incorrect ones to the bitches surely if this could be proved there is the basis for your case?

Ettinsmoor · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:54 am Post subject:

Whatever you try to do solicitors, trading standards etc. you have a litter of pups I assume ready to go to new homes, so I am afraid I would try to negotiate the price down but pay ( then arrange the hitman Rolling Eyes

)

At the end of the day it is why I have such a problem with endorsements and why I still haven't gone down that route. At the end of the day I just don't trust people (sadly).