Is this something to worry about

kmaw · Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: Is this something to worry about

Hi Everyone

Cadbury is 6mth's and he's lovely.. We have been attending training school for the past 4 weeks and are doing well, coming up against the usual problems of if anyone or thing else is around all the training goes out of the window but its just practice I guess??

My real problem is I don't know if he's been aggressive or if he's playing which ever it is it can be very scary (his eye's shine just like the demon dog in damon omen).
Any of the family can be either sitting on the settee, the rug or even standing up he looks at you then starts barking his tail up stands very ridged and nose crinkled if you are sat on the floor he lunges at you and can get quite close to biting your face (he still likes to bite). If you ignore him he just carries on. I spoke to my trainer who suggested I put him in his cage. He won't go in his cage if you tell him too and to try and get hold of his collar he's too quick and he thinks it's a game. I have tried the submissive posture but as soon as you let go of him he starts again barking and snappying.

I don't think he would bite but then again I'm not sure??
Is he at that stage and hopefully it should right itself or have I got a problem.

Any advice would be welcomed....... Crying or Very sad

JohnW · Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject:

By "Submissive posture", do you mean rolling him onto his back? Can you give a little more about how he behaves when at training? Is he in any way aggressive? And if so, how does that manifest it's self? Sometimes it is difficult for the uninitiated to recognise unacceptable play from aggression. This is the reason I'd like you to give as much info as you can think. What does your instructor at dog club think? Have they said? (Remembering that they have seen him but we haven't) How long has this behaviour been going on? Is it just that he has never improved from a baby or has he got worse? Would you describe him as hyperactive? If so, why would you say that? What reasons would you give?

Sorry for all the questions but they are important in building a picture.

Regards, John

kmaw · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:55 am Post subject:

Hi John

Submissive posture - I was told by my trainer to grab him if I can, if not put him in his cage, if I can grab him put him on his side and lie on him for a couple of seconds until he stops struggling then let him go, however he still thinks its a game and just starts racing around the house. Trying to grab a 6mth lab and place him in a cage is not a easy task. He has not mastered the bite inhabition and still continues to bite. At the training club he shows no signs of agression and is the star of the class (he'll do anything for food) however last week was the first time she saw him trying to bite me, we were doing a excercise on handling and when I got to his feet he starts trying to bite, he doesn't like been groomed either. She got hold of his top jaw placed a bit of pressure until he calmed down, I do this already but again as soon as I release him he starts again. He has always been a biter not a chewer but I would say his natured as changed over the last 4ish weeks. I wouldn't say he was hyperactive he likes to sleep.
I feel it's more attention seeking than anything. He is very placid with my daugher who is 6years and pulls him about, lies on top of him but he is great with her.
It seems to start when were sat down, standing around either as a family or individually. He will start to bite your hands (as I said it can hurt) which get your attention, he then gets eye contact which seems to make him worse so I either walk away or hold his mouth ,which ever one it starts him of barking he goes into his stance eyes look wild his nose is crinkled and he barks, this might sound silly but if I woof back at him he does stop only for a few seconds.I think it's his eye which make me feel like its a threat.

Thanks Karen

my4labs · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:03 am Post subject:

Hi karen

Who looks after the dog the most , i.e.feed, walk, groom, play.

JohnW · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:00 am Post subject:

The putting onto his side (or back) is known as an "Alpha Roll" It's an old technique which has been pretty well superseded by modern thinking. With a dominant dog you are actually issuing a challenge.

There is a theory in dog behavioural circles, NILIF. (Nothing in life is free) Meaning very simply that everything has a price. He wants his food, he can sit quietly whilst you prepare it. He wants a cuddle, he gets the cuddle when YOU are ready and not initeate it himself, and can behave himself whilst he gets the cuddle or it will stop. All little things like this.

There is an old saying which I have used on here in a case similar to yours.

"When you are up to your behind in alligators it is difficult to remember that the object of the exercise was to drain the swamp!"

You are so close to things that it is difficult to take a step back and see the bigger picture. All you do is firefight the immediate problem rather that see the long term implications.

Training is so important and not only for the exercise which you teach. Sit stays can be used around the house so often whilst you do things like sweep the floor for example. Yes, this makes the housework easier but that is not all. It is putting YOU in the position of issuing the orders and your dog in the subordinate position of obeying. A similar situation to the alpha roll but without force being needed. Teach the command "No". It's the most important command you can teach. Try to avoid force wherever possible. Force gives your dog the opportunity to reciprocate. Keep all commands quiet. You can sound firm without speaking loud. To your dog, if you shout then you are barking and if you are barking then there must be something to bark at!!! So understandable, he joins in.

The fact that he appears OK with your daughter leads me to believe that you do not have an aggressive dog. Maybe a dog who does not know what the expected behaviour should be and has not learned that he is actually hurting you.

Be careful of the use of food as a reward. Personally, along with most working gundog trainers I never use food. My aim is for my dog to want to do things to please me rather than some “Monetary” reward. I will use food in pet dog training to show a dog what’s required, (To a Labrador it is like an invisible lead!) but I drop it off as soon as the dog knows what’s wanted. I want the dog to want to please me, not to want to earn a titbit.

One final thing. Dogs of a certain age, as they approach adolescence can start to question everything. They get into what we call the “Kevin” stage. “Why should I do that? What give you the right to give me orders? Why can’t I give the orders for a change?” He is a little young for that yet but he may be entering that stage. As in everything else, the way forward is quiet calm insistence that he conforms and he will work through it and come out the other side a nice, well adjusted dog.

Regards, John

kmaw · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject:

Hi Collette

He's a family dog, and yes I do all of the walking, grooming, feeding etc.

Karen

kmaw · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject:

Hi John

I'm at week 5 dog training tonight so hopefully I'll learn some more techniques, many thanks for your advice.

Karen