Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: THE "GET OVER" COMMAND, IT WILL BE YOUR DOWNFALL !
Dear readers,
After many years i feel compelled to write about this subject as to be informative about the title in a bid to share knowledge to all would be gundog trainers wether for trialing or picking up.
A number of years ago while out on a training session with a very good friend of mine and a previous championship winner we broached the subject of this awful command "GET OVER or OVER". At the time i was a user of this command and my pal said " it will be your downfall in a trial or while picking up" ,so from that moment on the only command i use is "BACK",wether it`s a river,wall or fence one command "BACK".
THE REASON.
While being invited to a friends lovely shoot to pick up for the first time yesterday a hen pheasant was shot,with a leg dropping down the bird flew on approx 400 yards, over a fence boundry into a small wood.One of my pack was cast back jumping one fence 30 yards away then running the remainder of the distance back across the field to barbed fence boundary,after a couple of repositioning signals i pushed the dog "BACK" over the fence were the bird dropped in and gave the hunt whistle.I could just see the dog moving up and down 5 yards inside the boundry fence,after a couple of minutes i waited till he was at the bird entery position stopped him and gave him the back command again,the dog spun round and appeared to JUMP.My curiosity got the better of me so i set off across the field with the rest of my pack only to be met by my dog and a still alive hen pheasant with a broken leg.When i arrived at the wood boundry fence all was revealed,five yards inside the boundry fence was a 3 foot chicken wire fence !!! which at 30 yards never mind 400 yards was out of my sight.This enabled a wounded bird to be picked and not given up on or a possible 3 dog eye wipe in a field trial !!!
I think there are pros and cons for both giving and not giving a 'get over' command.
Personally, I don't use it. Like you I say 'back' and expect the dog to go back whatever (ditch, water, fence), keep going back until told otherwise.
However, I have conversely been in some very tricky handling situations at long distance, and involving strange angles, where a 'get over' command would have probably just made life a whole lot easier. ie. when your dog is near a stone wall that needs to be crossed at an angle (hard to explain without being there!). A 'back' meant the dog was running the wall, as the angle was very small, and a right hand command wasn't right either). A 'get over' could have just put the idea in the dogs head that it needed to go over the wall right there....
So, I wouldn't advise for or against, other than to say that your dog shouldn't 'need' a 'get over' command for every obstacle that it meets in its path. It should just keep going without extra commands.
Not at all,the task you are talking about is when you have full view of the dog and even at an angle 4-5-600 yards plus so if the we for example : the dog has reached the obstacle it should be back or a left or right hand signal depending which side the wall is on and that you want the dog to jump.I would Never let a dog run a wall,I`d be on it in a flash.
Marked retrieves at an angle to a dry stone wall is a must in a dogs training,if you do not understand readers what i`m talking about i`ll explain.Next time your out training along ay stone wall stand 3 yards off the wall (more if the ground on the other side falls away) throw a dummy over the wall at an angle then send the dog (watch what it does) "it will jump the wall face on not at an angle" thus losing the marked flight line of the dummy, and if the wind is not in your favour an unsuccessful retrieve is more likley.You have to train the dog to jump a wall/fence at an angle to give you and your dog the best chance of success.
My original post was basically about unseen obstacles in woods where the fail on a retrieve is more likely going to happen to a dog that needs a get over command in any point of it`s training !! KEEP IT SIMPLE.
It 'should' be left, right or back, I agree but sometimes, very occasionally things are not that black and white. The contours of a ground can pull the dog, or it may not be able to hold its course.
Like I say, I don't use 'get over', but there have been a small number of times in advanced handling situations where I wish I did!
Yeah it can get very frustrating at times and the distances we are talking about rarely i come across in trials with exception in Scotland but everyweek in my picking up enviroment.But i must mention the amount of times i hear in trials handlers shouting with more anxiety the words get over when their dog won`t clear an obstacle " it`s as if they are trying to reinforce a comand the dog don`t understand and the shouting gets louder and louder (noisey handling) and i`m talking 30 yard retrieves.
But i must mention the amount of times i hear in trials handlers shouting with more anxiety the words get over when their dog won`t clear an obstacle " it`s as if they are trying to reinforce a comand the dog don`t understand and the shouting gets louder and louder (noisey handling) and i`m talking 30 yard retrieves.
I totally agree with you on that one! I can't bear that continual shouting of 'getOver' when the dog clearly has no intention. At least if you only use 'back' it doesn't look quite so bad when the dog won't go over!!!
I used to only use Back. But having, this generation changed to using get over for water and fences its been a great addition to the arsenal.
Training is all about horses for courses. I don't think anyone can catagorically say 'don't' for something as minor as a choice of word. And rather than downfall its been a huge boon. I think if its not taught thoroughly, and there is a tendancy to not TEACH it, just to USE it when a dog is standing at a fence, then it looks ineffective.
If taught properly, when used a dog will understand it well enough to LOOK for something that he deems 'get over'able'. The direct area of work i've found it useful is twofold.
1) Instead of 'back' when pushing them OVER a stretch of water it improved my dogs tendancy to 'scan the surface of the water' as they knew when used it was NEVER going to be on the water always over it. That also helped if there was a distraction On the water, it was 'never going to be that' which helped pulling to distractions.
2) At fences, when the dog is sent towards them not at a straight direct angle... my own experince was that 'get over!' was decisive that I want that fence jumped. 'Back' in the past tended to, if they were so inclined, to run the fence/wall because of the angle. Sent direct to things it was fine. Sent on an angle they would be 'creative' with the word. But once they knew 'get over', it would cement two things. 1) I mean jump the bloody thing not run it whatever the angle of approach. 2) If you then DON'T there is no grey area here, I am coming to get you You (Mr Dog) CAN'T say 'well I thought 'back' meant run this tenuious angle'...'
Far from a downfall its been handy. I don't think its essential. I don't think anything is essential if you have well thought through reasoning behind using something else. But having NOT had it and now having spent a lot of time installing it into this generation of dogs its been bloody useful frankly.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Thanks Diana for your view on the subject,
Before i get to your points I`m curious when you mention a dog looking for `get`over`able objects once given the command,So shall we say if you set up a situation :dog is sent for "blind" retrieve in the corner of a fence/wall, the bird is either left or right over the obstacle,i take it you would stop the dog in the corner to instruct the next command "would as you hand signal give the commad over" ?.
Your 1st point regards get over command being useful on water,surely a river/lake is viewed as an open field, ie distraction training on water is the same as land just that the dog is swimming rather than running.Now before people start banging on about some dogs tend to pull towards objects in water it would be a foolish person who starts a dogs water training throwing 30 yards retrieves in water 6 foot deep were you cannot get out to it. (make it simple).As regards scanning for objects on water ! I would not want a dog scanning/scenting neither water or land on a run out until i gave him the command when in the area of the fall.
Your 2nd point has no sense because on the original topic,an unseen obstacle 5 yards inside the wood your dog would have thought it had completed its task of "over" after initially entering the wood over the first fence and you reduce your chances very very much when the you give the command back of it jumping the second" fence."
Don`t leave it to chance,train to succeed in any situation.
Many thanks.
Last edited by silentbutdeadly on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Just to add to this topic and because it is coming up more and more for me who has a foot in both camps at the moment on the back until I say otherwise, and using the get over command. I just have to remember which dog I have taught which command lol.
I hear more and more, no doubt because of where I live with lots of dykes, a get in command which tells the dog that the bird, dummy etc. is down in the dyke and not over the other side.
Initially I stamped my little feet and said enough is enough I don't need anymore commands, but I have actually been in two competitions where numerous dogs were put out for going over the dyke and hunting and the one dog that had been taught the get in command picked the blinking bird from the bottom of the dyke.
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I can't bear that continual shouting of 'getOver' when the dog clearly has no intention. At least if you only use 'back' it doesn't look quite so bad when the dog won't go over!!!
You (Mr Dog) CAN'T say 'well I thought 'back' meant run this tenuious angle'...' 
