Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: learning bite inhibition through other dogs
Bella is not biting us humans as much as she was but poor old Ruby is still suffering the brunt of it and I don't know where I should take it from here.
Whenever Ruby comes in the room Bella heads straight for her and starts nipping at her face. Ruby either ignores and turns her head away or growls. Rightly or wrongly I don't think this is good manners from the pup so I have tried to stop it and it has reduced the extent she does it but not stopped it completely.
When Ruby is laying on the rug Bella usually starts clambering over her which Ruby doesn't mind but then the biting starts. Ruby will growl and has her mouth open making whining/growling noises when she bites her. She does also do the odd snarl as well but it does not seem to make any difference to Bella, she still carries on.
Very occasionally Bella does the odd yelp but it doesn't seem to stop her.
How far do I let this go ? Do I just wait for Ruby to flip and really tell her off or will she learn eventually? Should I step in?
I wouldn't myself. I think you wrote something similar a few weeks ago, and my answer would be the same, leave them to it. The vocality from Ruby sounds like play to be honest, even if the noises sound negative to our ears. If she MEANT it, the puppy would listen and Ruby would follow it up by moving away physcially not laying there. The noises mine make when laying fighting sound like sabre tooth tigers
If its disturbing you seperate them for a while, but to be honest its pretty normal young dog/older dog play, and if you step in you will have a constant job on your hands Best she bites too hard and Ruby gives her a proper whack at some point.
Sounds like Ruby has it 'covered'
Di
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I was thinking along the same lines as Di, are you sure it's not play noises from Ruby?
Mins used to play with our much missed Cassie. Mins would go and lay by her, on her front feet and start (gently) biting at her and Cass would give in and respond and they would make some delightful noises, but it was very much play.
I tested it a few times when Mins was a puppy, just to make sure she wasn't bothering Cass, as Cassie was approaching 10 when we adopted Mins. If I thought Mins might be getting a bit too much, I'd pick her up and hold her away from Cass. Cass would just come right up and demand that I gave her HER puppy back
If Cass had made it obvious she wasn't happy, by noise, body language, moving away etc., that would have been different, but she very much adored her little Sis. Though Mins was an extremely gentle pup, I must say.
Yes Di, I did write a similar thing a few weeks ago but I would have thought Bella would have learnt now!! But my concern was sparked by a friend who heard the noise when I was on the phone and she said that she wouldn't allow that kind of thing as it sounded aggressive!
The noise coming from Ruby you would think that she was killing Bella but she doesn't touch her, it is all done with an open mouth. I just get a bit concerned when Ruby curls her lip and snarls and looks properly cross but it just doesn't seem to deter Bella.
I suppose I am worried that Ruby could do serious damage if she was hacked off with her but then I suppose she would have done that by now if that was the case
Why has Bella not yet learnt that biting like that is not on? She is trying to bite Ruby, not just mouth, and I know it ****** hurts!!!!
I am a worrier, I know
Angela - Ruby has never really 'played' with another dog as such so I am not sure of the difference between 'play' and 'not play' noises!!!!
Having said that Ruby only chooses to move when it has been going on for a while so maybe she doesn't dislike it as much as I think!!
I've had a similar thing here this week with having little Merlin here on holiday.
He was constant play play play, Meg hated it and had even picked up the courage to have a grumble back a couple of times but he couldn't care less - she would run away most of the time, she hates puppies!
Mole on the other hand lapped up all the extra attention and it sounded like they were killing each other for the majority of the time they were in the same room. however it was all done as play with alot of open mouthed grabbing and snarling but not with any malice.
I'm sure Ruby is fine and like Meg, when she really has had enough will let Bella know.
If she was really cross then Bella would back off....Amber used to do this to Murphy and he would tolerate alot but he would tell her if she overstepped the mark. Are you actually sure she's biting rather than mouthing?? If she bit Ruby properly then Ruby would more than likely yelp just like we do.
My friend has a working cocker and she wouldn't leave their retriever alone when she was a pup..Its probably a good idea to enforce some down time in the crate for Bella as 1) it will give Ruby a break and 2) working cockers are such busy, wired little dogs that they will not tend to chill voluntarily and as such can get over stimulated.
Yes Di, I did write a similar thing a few weeks ago but I would have thought Bella would have learnt now!! But my concern was sparked by a friend who heard the noise when I was on the phone and she said that she wouldn't allow that kind of thing as it sounded aggressive!
The noise coming from Ruby you would think that she was killing Bella but she doesn't touch her, it is all done with an open mouth.
The noise they make in play can sound awful! Our girls played open mouthed and loudly as you describe. They'd start off vaguely quietly and it would just get louder and louder. You are obviously the best judge of whether Ruby is ok with it all, as you are there and know your dogs, but the noise you describe does sound just like ours would make.
When Mins and my Collie run around in the fields they leap all over each other and again make terrible sounding noises but they are both willing and equal participants (that's the important bit for me) and they will stop if I ask them to and calm down right away, so I just let them get on with it. They'd never do it with another dog and sometimes if I am walking alone and there's not really anyone I know about, I find the noise they make kinda reassuring
I don't know if your friend has dogs of her own who play, but I can understand why the noise would sound bad, but in our case it's definitely been ours having fun
Why has Bella not yet learnt that biting like that is not on? She is trying to bite Ruby, not just mouth, and I know it ****** hurts!!!!
A) Because she's still a baby and
B) Because Ruby hasn't given her a proper telling off yet.
All that snarling, growling, face nipping and pulling, is all just play. If you heard my 4 when they are all at it, it sounds like they are all really aggressive beasts and the ugly faces they pull at each other are amazing .
Dogs play rough....Real ROUGH. But you'd know if it wasn't play, as there would be screams and submissions and it just wouldn't sound or look like it sounds and looks now. It really would be obvious.
Twoee still plays like Bella now at 8 months old. She still hangs onto bits of Pickle and bites Poods legs. The only one she is a little more reserved around is Mojo, but then I don't let the pups pester Mojo from the start, as she really isn't keen on them and is likely to get picked on.
It sounds like Bella and Ruby really like each other and are getting on well. So to be honest I'd only stop the games when it doesn't suit you for them to be playing (such as when you're on the phone ), or when you can see Ruby has had enough but hasn't got the balls to pin Bella down and tell her.
Brodie continually jumps up at Zaks jowels and he gets so far into Zaks mouth I'm sure he's kissing Zaks tonsil's Zak will put up with it for a while then he starts making these really strange noises, (a bit like a lions roar) and moving his head from side to side. When hes had enough he walks away, when hes REALLY had enough he will growl and snap and you can tell he actually means it, although I watch to make sure Brodie is safe, I dont interfear, (cause I did read on hear that you shouldn't), however, he did sort Brodie out last night Brodie was annoying him,so Zak just pushed him out of the way with his foot and its a Big foot
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noises, but it was very much play.
