Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: Recall whistle during a retrieve?
Something to think about for me, but wondered what other people do?
Training today with someone who I really respect for his dog handling and understanding of how they think, a shooting man and spaniel man really.
Talking about stopping them swapping and he said he would expect a dog to come straight back to a recall on a shoot and not pick anything up he finds along the way because they might be a guns birds to pick up and he wants his dog to avoid them. He would line dummies up in front of him and expect them to recall to him and run over them/around them to train this and NOT pick one up.
My question is on a retrieve where they overshoot and go too far what do you do to bring them closer to you then?
His reason for not using a recall is that it is a recall and otherwise many dogs won't come back until there is something in their mouth, or as my older dog does,comes back slowly looking for something along the way. Perhaps I am guilty of training this as to bring her back in I use a recall and then sometimes she finds it on the way back or needs extra handling.
What do other people do (esp you triallers!)?
His solution to the problem, which his lab will do, is to use a 'turn' whistle command (2 pips) and then the dog quarters back towards him and should find it. I can see his logic and I try and train mine to hunt back towards me but sometimes I feel they are a bit far off to hunt them straight way- perhaps I need to blow the stop whistle quicker!!
It drives me mad how my older dog comes in but only so far and then expects direction, and comes back very slowly. Probably trained by myself- I very rarely would pull her back in if things went wrong and start again, whereas now I try and think what behaviour patterns they are learning and what I am teaching and start again. Hopefully without knocking my dogs confidence!
Someone was saying to me recently that they used to do the 2 pips to turn and quarter back, but that it's not as common in modern lab trialling nowadays. The more experienced people will know more than I ever will about how trials used to be compared to how they are now.
I've been told to make sure I always give plenty of praise when dog returns from a 'dry run' so the return isn't slowed any if no retrieve and the dog doesn't think it's done wrong or is in trouble.
If dog overshoots, but needs to have done so for the wind, I'd leave well alone. If wrong for wind, I've been trained to blast the stop whistle immediately, and bring across behind left or right slightly to right dog for wind, then a slow sort of hunt forward type recall whistle, rather than a fast recall whistle. So dog has gone beyond the bird but been brought back round on the wind in a tight square. I sort of put my arm down a bit to get the dogs nose down a little. If I wanted to pull dog right in then I'd stand up straight and give a proper blast of the recall whistle with my arms open. It's hard to type it out. Does that make any sense? I don't know if that's what others do or not, but it's what I've been shown to do.
I think a lot of Spaniel and HPR folks, who come to Retrievers bring some of the traditional HPR/Spaniel training methods to their retriever training. So its really horses for courses for them. They have fund something that works for those breeds, and probably, again, is 'traditional' for those breeds and so they stick with it.
Really, if a dog overshoots, its a simple case (ha ha! In theory!) of a stop whistle and then if you are certain where the bird is, whistle them forward till near, then hunt them with whatever you usually hunt your dog with (whistle/vocal command) OR if you have no idea where the retrieve is, but feel they are just a bit deep, stop them, and as Mo says above, hunt them forwards, *which needs teaching*. For *us* is a recall whistle to start them moving in a forward direction, swiftly changed into a hunt whistle as they do, and the arm movement of taking your arm from chest to thigh of the direction they want to 'orientate' their hunting, according to where you *think* it probably is OR to put them the right side of the wind so they might just hit some scent.
The thing I do slightly respectfully disagree with, is the idea that using a recall whistle to bring them forwards if they overshoot might mean it screws them up for coming back without hunting in future. For me, the recall is just to bring them to an area, be that six foot from them or sixy yards RIGHT back to you, and they obey it till they hear 'something else'. In the case of overshooting a retrieve and then subsequentally coming back towards you, I would expect them to HUNT on the HUNT command not the recall whistle.
OK, sometimes you recall a dog and in doing so they hit some scent and bang onto something. But more times than not they won't, they will just come to the area you dictate, THEN take the stop whistle, THEN the hunt command to start hunting for the retrieve.
When he says he would set a line of dummies and recall the dog over them not expecting them to pick any.... does he mean when the dog already has something in his mouth (so to teach him not to swap) or when he has nothing....?
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Thank you both, Moj I know what you mean about the hunting forward, I have seen it used and been advised to teach it to my dogs, I am trying but am struggling to get pup to slow down and put her head down and LOOK, not bounce back towards me. Tennis balls in long grass seems to be helping but at the moment I think she thinks it means come to a certain distance of me rather than look the whole time.
Thanks for your comments, it is interesting to hear what you have been told, and it comes back to the 'wind' again!
Di, he means with nothing in their mouth, which I have to admit I found a bit odd to how I have trained mine as I have let them pick things up on the way back to me. I can't think of many situations where you wouldn't want them to pick up a bird they stumbled across on the way back to you? If they were on the way out to a retrieve you wouldn't expect them to blank something they ran over would you? Other than retrieving a runner when dead birds are around perhaps? Argh I am a picking up novice really as well as aspiring to competition so it's a steep learning curve!
I like to keep things simple so think teaching a turn command is probably not going to happen, and I'm inclined to agree with you that a recall should be quickly towards you however far... which is why the older dog infuriates me as she is so good on the recall in every other situation, but then you realise what you have inadvertently taught them or let them get away with!
So I think I will continue as I normally do and am interested to hear how other people handle but it stretched my brain cells a bit this afternoon, I can see how it works but probably not for me with this dog.
She needs to be SOLID with understanding the meaning a hunt command. I personally think people are too quick to move off getting a seriously solid hunt vocal command and starting to put a whistle in before the vocal command is imbedded properly.
If you heeled her along, dropped a couple of balls in long grass behind her as you walked, then sat her up, and put your hands in your pockets and kept your body still and gave a verbal hunt command would she start hunting immediately...? Or look at your quizzically saying 'I think I know that but maybe not...' or would you need to use a hand signal to GET her hunting and then she would settle into it feeding off the vocal command? Its important you KNOW she genuinely knows it from static with no other 'ques'... then you can take it forward into peeping her forward then giving the hunt command so OK, to start with she is bowling in a few paces but the minute she HEARS something different 'IE' the hunt command, she changes to hunting immediately....
If that makes sense...?
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Yes thank you Di that does make sense, perhaps I have to really test if she knows what it means, although part of me thinks if she has heard or seen me put something out then she knows she has to look for something. I assume the walking along is dropping a tennis ball hoping they haven't noticed it rather than putting it out in front of them. The same trainer recommends getting them hunting and then chucking out a tennis ball where they have alrady been without them seeing, so they learn to believe you and keep looking- must try it!
I basically need to go back to basics, but it is just my achilles heel, I hate it but it is starting to be a real pain and fault when trying to handle her. I think around my feet she knows to snuffle around but at a distance she isn't comfortable so I need to build it up gradually. She is not as clever as the other one but more consistent once she has learnt it so must persevere!
I can't think of many situations where you wouldn't want them to pick up a bird they stumbled across on the way back to you? If they were on the way out to a retrieve you wouldn't expect them to blank something they ran over would you? Other than retrieving a runner when dead birds are around perhaps?
You would never expect a dog to pass over game without picking it! This would be a huge fault, either going away from you or coming towards you. The dog's job is to pick game in it's path. I would have to question the wisdom of anyone who said otherwise.....
Well I have to say I was a bit confused by that opinion as I was under that impression too, I do value his teaching very much but respectfully disagree with some things. I couldn't think of may practical/shooting scenarios wheree that would be advantageous- other than perhaps the one he suggested which was avoiding the birds a gun wanted to pick up.
Ok slightly different but how would it be viewed in a trial if just as you blow the stop whistle to direct your dog it comes across a bird, scoops it up and runs back to you? My dogs have done it on dummies (probably me mismarking is to blame) and it annoys me as I feel they should have stopped. However one lady said to me once her dog was in a trial and got put out because she had a wrong mark, blew the stop whistle when the dog was next to the bird and he got accused of standing over game. #
Yes Vicky its a tricky one. Judges are human (mostly - grin) if they can see there is a GENUINE mistake in timing, and a whistle is blown JUST as a dog goes to put his head down, so he lifts it to acknowledge that whistle, then immediately dips again picks and comes, most would be OK about it. REALLY standing over a bird is when they go out, find, and 'check in' before picking it.
If a judge can see ythe bird was not where you were expecting and it was just bad bad timing, most or many would be sympathetic as long as it only happened the once, then they would start knocking you.
In an Open trial, a piece of bad luck like that could just lose you it though, as most judges would *say* you should be able to read your dogs body language that he is 'onto' something and not be blowing stop whistles and let him work. But having twice this season been in this exact senario, and both times being given the benefit of the 'horrendous bad timing' doubt, I can only say we are all only human, and we wouldn't do it on PURPOSE!!! So a bit of slack should be cut.... (and usually is).
However as Laura said thats VERY different to patently running over birds just because a recall whistle is blown. I really cannot see any advantage to that in a 'gamefinding' breed.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
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