Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: Jess is a Disruption to Training Class
Hi. I feel I need some advice from other labbie lovers on a tricky topic. After having behavioural problems with Jess (long story, but she was attacked by a couple of terriers and suffered from fear agression) I took her to a different dog trainer for an intensive session to help with the problem.
They also run gun dog training sessions once a week and as I had been taking her to another trainer for gun dog training anyway (plus the other class was often attended by upwards of 30 dogs each week, so mainly standing around all morning) I switched and started taking her to the new one. It is a lovely friendly class, outdoors, with a trainer who really knows his stuff. There are usually only about 6 to 8 dogs there.
The problem is that Jess is quite disruptive, can't often manage to sit still and wait for her turn and only needs the slightest whiff of another dog messing about to go and join in the fun. I know this is all my fault, as I don't have enough authority over her and therefore she thinks she can get away with bad behaviour.
The problem is that the others are supposed to be working towards a kennel club certificate and I feel Jess is spoiling their lesson each week and taking up way too much of the trainers valuable time. I know if I ask them individually they will say they don't mind, but I suspect that they do. Also the trainer is very kind and encouraging, but again I think he would probably prefer never to see us again.
I feel she needs the training (and I know I do!) plus we both enjoy the session each week. However, am I being really selfish by continuing to go?
Could you maybe turn up for class early and start just getting her focus and attention. Make her work for a bit before they all arrive. Then when they arrive, let her say hello and get the tail wagging done before everyone has to start the class.
Then continue with the class.
If she still just wants to play, then move away from the group and get her attention back. Do some heelwork with lots of direction changes so she has to pay attention to know where you are going to go next. Little mini recalls on the lead, running backwards etc.
I dont know how a gundog training class differs to your standard obedience, so forgive me if this isnt at all suitable.
You have every right to be there to better you and your dog to train her so you have a dog that is pleasant to be around and safe.
Im sure this trainer has had far worse students, and surely thats what the trainer is there for, to help.
But personally i think taking her away form the group and doing quiet focus work will help and will redirect her energies.
Could even just try and sit her calmly away from the group and gradually get closer and closer.
You will still be getting productive training in as well, because as a gundog, they need to be calm and steady when they are waiting dont they?? (again my ignorance sorry )
You need to talk to the trainer about Jess` behaviour in class, she sounds like a typical naughty schoolchild who just needs to be taught how its done properly.
Its a well known fact that most trainers train the owners as much if not more than the dog , we need to learn how to train our dogs and how to communicate with them in their language (kind of).
Do you practice what you learn in class, at home?, its like homework, she needs lots of practice so what she`s being taught sinks in.
Do you know when the rest of the class are taking their KC certificate?, if you can find that out maybe suggest to the trainer that you have a break from the last 2/3 classes so they can concentrate and get the test done.
You don`t want to give it up altogether because Jess needs the socialisation and training and you need to be able to gain confidence in getting her to do what you want her to do, without her saying "Talk to the paw"
The problem is that Jess is quite disruptive, can't often manage to sit still and wait for her turn and only needs the slightest whiff of another dog messing about to go and join in the fun
This sentence stood out to me, how is she disruptive? Running over or vocal?
TBH if she's not yet ready to do the whole class of lead then don't put her in a situation where she can fail.
Move a little extra distance away from the rest of the class and practice short stints off leash where she sits with you.
If she is vocal then turning and moving away from the group, redirecting her focus usually helps.
The other thing to bear in mind is that attention spans need building, one of mine really struggles with the 10 -15 minute sits 'doing nothing' waiting a turn at gundog class. He's fine on an actual shoot where there's action to watch but in training if he's not being asked to do something (even if that is a sit-stay) he starts faffing, eating grass, fidegting, following his nose etc.
You shouldn't have to give up the class at all, but keeping a dog with you and making effort to keep them quiet is sort of polite in a gundog class - your trainer should help you with all this though
I wouldn't worry. I know it can feel embarassing but I bet you notice it far more than anyone else they're probably too busy with their own pups and hoping they're doing the right thing.
At the class we go to Sam is older than most of the dogs because we're only doing Bronze atm and some of the pups there are totally nutty but you know what no one minds we're all there to learn, there are also a couple of dogs who are rescues and one with a specific behavioural problem and the trainer explained they need the environment to learn keeping them away from class wouldn't help them and its good practice for all of the dogs to learn to ignore distractions anyway. If a dog persistently goes off on one or their handler doesn't know what to do or isn't doing it effectively then our trainer comes over and intervenes and will take the dog into the centre as a demonstrator or will correct the action or tell you what to do/say which actually is really good, its quite funny because she doesn't do anything harsh but the dogs know she means business if one kicks off she will walk towards them and its often like children when the headteacher is coming they suddenly revert to behaving e.g. sitting and going 'sorry I'm being good now' Does your trainer come over and have a quiet word or show you what to do, if not perhaps ask if he/she can because it does help and it helps if it happens at the time.
Keep with it, she will soon be star of the class, you'll see.
Thanks so much for the words of advice and encouragement.
To answer some of the questions, she does both the squeaking (and occasionally proper barks) and the running off, at various times. I do try walking away with her to break the cycle and regain some concentration, plus trying to reward the good behaviour with treats (although sometimes the good bits are few and far between).
The trainer is really good and often comes over to tell me what else to do and to help with her. He is infinitely patient but has that natural ability with dogs so that they just know not to mess about and how to behave. Often that makes me feel even more useless, since she then starts acting up again for me. He has said that I need to take a nasty pill, as I am way too soft on her.
Mary - the 'talk to the paw' comment is so Jess I feel you must know her!
The really annoying thing is that when it is her turn to retrieve she is really good at it, goes off like lightening, in the right direction, will hunt around and is getting better at taking commands from a distance. She just thinks she should be doing it all the time, rather than sitting waiting. Don't get me wrong, she is probably never going to be a brilliant gundog, but is doing quite well for a choccie. She is also 2 years old, so should be much better by now (has been going to gun dog classes fairly consistently since she was 12 weeks old - what does that say about me and my abilities to learn and improve?).
Thanks again - I will definitely stick it out and hopefully can report back some time that we are the stars of the class (although by then Jess might be 12 years old.................)
He has said that I need to take a nasty pill, as I am way too soft on her.
Thanks again - I will definitely stick it out and hopefully can report back some time that we are the stars of the class (although by then Jess might be 12 years old.................)
If you find it hard to be tough with her (and I am not talking about beating her up!!! Just being firm) think of it as you being out with her, you see danger, she wants to investigate it - you need to be able to over ride what she wants with what NEEDS to be done to avert danger. I have put on posts before that I have 4 voices for Bo. The first one is normal, the second is a bit louder in case he has not heard, the third one is deeper and stronger and he knows it means "Now" so we very rarely get beyond it. Voice 4 is much deeper and means "you are in BIG trouble sunshine get back here/stop doing that NOW" - and he comes straight back or stops what he is doing and waits to be put onlead and into disgrace (being ignored). He (and the others) have plenty of leeway and are bouncy beasts, but they know when they have reached the limit and do not push it any further (normally!)
Okey dokey the way your istructor sets up his classes sounds a lot like mine, so something at this point that needs to be said is, if she is onlead, she can't be disrupting other dogs work... if she is disrupting other dogs work then he needs to be thinking through how and when he takes you off the lead. For the dogs I have which would want to play play play and are very new to gundog work probably 95% of the less on is on the lead. They are certainly never off the lead when another dog is retrieving or being recalled or whatever.... so we avoid them disrupting. Noise is one thing, yes onlead dogs can be noisey but I really think after each exercise she does, putting her back on the lead is the key here to make you feel less of a disruptive influence. AND she can't fail then
If you were my client I would suggest that you come firstly for some one to ones, maybe two or three to get to the bottom of how to deal with this behaviour. AT one to ones dogs always behave like angels So its more having the time to talk properly to you and work through everything more slowly than in a class enviroment.
THEN I would suggest a couple of maybe two to ones with another pupil or the instructor with their own dog who won't respond to silly behaviour by yours but WILL be more of a draw than just you and the instructor to misbehave... Vamping up the difficulty.
Then probably slot back into group lessons maybe with a one to one every few weeks to top up...
Firmness is the key, firmness, homework and consistancy.... And you may initally have to be 'firmer' than you are 100% comfortable with to create the bad cop that dog NEVER wants to see again, just momentarily... But a one to one can show you this properly with your trainer.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Thanks Georgina and Di, really appreciate the help.
I definitely need to learn to use very different voices, as I don't think she is getting the message when I am not pleased with her. It seems like she is getting it but is just inclined to ignore me, but I suspect she is just a bit confused and therefore thinks it is ok to do what she wants.
Either way it is up to me to make sure she is very clear what is acceptable and what is not and that is where I am going wrong with her. She is a little sweetie too, but so blasted annoying when she starts acting up. Such a shame as with the right handling she will no doubt be a little star.
I will continue with the training, but will definitely talk to the trainer about some 1:1 sessions, so I don't feel so guilty about the others in the class. I'm really glad I asked for help, as I was inclined to just give up on the classes and struggle on at home, with a dog who would never be 100% reliable in dangerous situations (ie might not recall when needed to etc).
Can I just clarify, is she off the lead for much of the lesson, so able to run in/disrupt with the other dogs or does he have you keep her onlead EXCEPT when you are specifically needing to have her off for an exercise... then back on?
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
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, we need to learn how to train our dogs and how to communicate with them in their language (kind of).
Does your trainer come over and have a quiet word or show you what to do, if not perhaps ask if he/she can because it does help and it helps if it happens at the time.
