I haven't watched the DVD's in question, so can't comment. I have a great trainer I go to on a weekly basis, who points us in the right direstion, and sets retrieves and situations up for uss.
Sorry, but I see no point in training a dog by fear. I think it's counter productive. I do know of trainers who do shout and hit their dogs if they are not achieving. I have been told to hit Wispa on an occasion. Refused point blank. I'm a firm believer of reward training. If the dog can't do it, then fine. Go back to someting it can do. Also split out the actions to steps.
Sit, wait, send, retrieve, sit, hold, and finish.
I also teach the hold command when they are young.
It just looks to me that he uses force to get them in line, dogs won't react that way unless they've experienced a good hiding. I just think you can achieve the basic stuff in a more positive manner, and faster, that's all. Picked up lots of pointers from it though. Needed something as reference as well. Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown. Obviously the dog didn't see or understand the pistol so associated the noise with the dummy. I'll be making sure I introduce the pistol away from dummies and retrieving, then when he's acclimatised to the noise i'll bring it together.
Not talking about anyone in particular but some trainers/competitors probably only see the dog as a tool and nothing else. Trophies and ego's are more important so training the dog in a positive manner doesn't interest them?
Splitting the actions sounds good to me to achieving a really formal retrieve. Most of it comes naturally obviously so I won't bother with the send and retrieve but i'll shape the delivery. If all goes to plan he should take whatever I offer and hold without chewing. I should be able to ask him to sit or stand without him dropping the item. When I command 'fetch' while he's holding it a couple of feet in front of me he'll come close, sit in front, and offer the item. If I move backwards he'll automatically move in close to offer again. I should be able to reach out and touch the item without him dropping it and he'll only let go once I command 'give'. This training will be done with an item he's not familiar with so he doesn't associate with anything. Then when we go back to retrieving he should offer the same behaviour. That's the plan anyway..
Are you around the Essex area by any chance Martin? I'd be interested in your trainers details if you are? Planning on seeing a trainer once a month or so to help and judge how we're doing.
Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown.
Quite a lot of the situations he set up on the DVD were done to demonstrate how to correct problems in training. It's one of the best DVD's I've seen at showing you how to put right problems.
Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown.
Quite a lot of the situations he set up on the DVD were done to demonstrate how to correct problems in training. It's one of the best DVD's I've seen at showing you how to put right problems.
Regards, John
Fair enough John, and my only gripe's during the first DVD when he came back with the black pups. After that he uses a different dog anyway..
I understand some situations were setup and that's great, but the starting pistol wasn't setup. He never said at anytime that he caused the problem by introducing the pistol with the dummy, and wasn't sure what had caused it either. He never said afterwards to maybe introduce the pistol separately to save their being a potential problem with the dummy.
Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown.
Quite a lot of the situations he set up on the DVD were done to demonstrate how to correct problems in training. It's one of the best DVD's I've seen at showing you how to put right problems.
Regards, John
Agree - I think this is perhaps the only DVD set and trainer which actually set up scenarios to go wrong with the sole purpose of showing how to correct such a problem. I think this is what most people wish for with these videos: what to do when things go wrong or if a dog behaves/respond in a certain way.
As for introducing a starting pistol, it's a very good idea to get someone to do the shooting and throwing the dummy for you at a distance so you can concentrate fully on your youngster
Natasha
____________
WLF All the Way!!!!
"Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you canīt eat it or hump it. **** on it and walk away..."
The only thing I would say is training is all about doing what you feel comfortable with and tailoring things to suit you, so that you achieve a good end goal.
I am sure many people see their dogs as a tool, I don't have a problem with that, there are so many breeds of dog bred for different purposes they were originally a tool. I doubt many farmers see their border collies as pets so why should a game keeper see his lab as one? Some do, some don't.
I think reward based training has it's place. I think a dog should also work because it is driven too and all the rewards in the world won't get some dogs to work. I also don't have an issue with some correction via punishment (that does not mean a serious hiding).
The chap in the DVD's (which I don't think I have seen), must be doing something right if he has ftch's etc. Who are we to judge?
Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown.
Quite a lot of the situations he set up on the DVD were done to demonstrate how to correct problems in training. It's one of the best DVD's I've seen at showing you how to put right problems.
Regards, John
Agree - I think this is perhaps the only DVD set and trainer which actually set up scenarios to go wrong with the sole purpose of showing how to correct such a problem. I think this is what most people wish for with these videos: what to do when things go wrong or if a dog behaves/respond in a certain way.
As for introducing a starting pistol, it's a very good idea to get someone to do the shooting and throwing the dummy for you at a distance so you can concentrate fully on your youngster
Natasha
Yep, that's why I decided on getting this set as it does seem to be the best available at showing how to correct mistakes... apart from the starting pistol Thanks for the tip Natasha.
The thing is, people like George Ridley, John Halstead, Stan Harvey and the like who make these videos are highly respected trainers, but they are not professional actors, nor are they professional script writers. Yes, sometimes when they get their message across people can get the wrong idea. For example, you say you would not attempt to train for the starting pistol like that. Do you not think that you have learned a valuable lesson then? Do you think that someone with 50 to 60 years experience would not know he was making elementary mistakes? Maybe he should have said "This is not the way to do it." rather than assume that people would realise that.
The thing is, people like George Ridley, John Halstead, Stan Harvey and the like who make these videos are highly respected trainers, but they are not professional actors, nor are they professional script writers. Yes, sometimes when they get their message across people can get the wrong idea. For example, you say you would not attempt to train for the starting pistol like that. Do you not think that you have learned a valuable lesson then? Do you think that someone with 50 to 60 years experience would not know he was making elementary mistakes? Maybe he should have said "This is not the way to do it." rather than assume that people would realise that.
Regards, John
Of course it's been helpful and I've learnt not to introduce the pistol like that. I don't think the problem was getting the message across though. He never mentioned that introducing them together caused the dummy shy problem. Just reiterated that dogs aren't gun shy etc and went on to do the 3 days pistol training. He didn't set that up, and didn't show an alternative method of introducing the pistol so one would assume that's how he normally introduces it. Some people watching that might not pick up on what caused the problem and go about it the same way?
Last edited by Montie on Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:01 pm; edited 3 times in total
I used to tap my dog on the back end with a cap if she was not doing something. She instantly knew she was doing something wrong. I was slated for doing it by a "top" trainer down south. So stopped doing that. You can go to another trainer the enxt week who'll tell you to beat the cr88 out of the dog if it so much as squeaks.
Any training material, be it book, DVD or a trainer should be used as a guideline. As has said, it's pretty much down to you on how you want to train your dog. You have the insight into how it is going to behave in certain situations. Beating a sensitive dog is counter productive, whereas a dominion dog might need a bit of a clip now and then.
With a starting pistol, I think you need to start a good distance away and slowly bring it in. However, if you can, get someone else to do that.
My biggest problem with a starting pistol was it spooked my dog, and she would try to get as far away as she could. It was only when we dropped her in the deep end on a shoot, she realised the bangs weren't going to hurt, and that she'll get to retrieve a bird. She's still a little jumpy with guns going off in the distance, but rather than run she's looking for a hunt command. Be interesting to see how the pups behave with a starting pistol, or even the fireworks that tend to start around about now.
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Introducing the starting pistol was interesting. The first time he fired the pistol he done it simultaneously with throwing the dummy. It spooked the dog, then he spent ages wondering why the dog was then spooked every time the dummy was shown and thrown. Obviously the dog didn't see or understand the pistol so associated the noise with the dummy. 
I'll be making sure I introduce the pistol away from dummies and retrieving, then when he's acclimatised to the noise i'll bring it together.
