Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: Early training - Correcting setbacks
Hi LF,
We started our retrieving training outside a week or so ago. Up until then we'd just concentrated on obedience, a few short retrieves in the hallway and the recall / stop whistle. Just want to share the early problems we've had and how we corrected them. Might be helpful?
Once we moved outside we had a couple of problems so I introduced treats as an incentive, and to help communicate what I wanted from him whilst keeping the training fun and positive.
Firstly, he wasn't running directly back and was hesitant delivering to hand so with the inclusion of treats we fixed that fairly quickly. Using the same principle as our other reward training, I just marked when he delivered to hand and then rewarded with a treat.
A couple of times he ran just past me then turned and delivered to hand so he didn't get a treat for this retrieve. He soon realised and this problem was corrected. The other problem was he started to drop the dummy at my feet anticipating the treat. So again he didn't get a treat until he delivered to hand. I held my hand out and ask him to 'give' which he eventually did then he got the treat. From then on he hasn't dropped at my feet. I've now phased out the treats so he doesn't get one every retrieve.
I captured these on video, the running past and dropping so I've uploaded them to youtube. Here they are if anyone's interested. (Excuse steptoes garden please.)
Well he is probably dropping the dummy because you are giving him a treat when he comes back - so in his head it goes like this "the sooner I get back to mum (I am assuming you are female??!) and open my mouth, I get a treat yum yum" and in opening his mouth he drops the dummy.
At this early stage I would try not to use treats - I have had to resort to this with my older dog for various reasons but accept that he now spits before getting to me - an improvement as before he wasn't coming back at all!!
If Harvey isn't keen on coming back, forget treats...get on the floor, make high pitched "heeeeerrreeeee Harvey, come come, oooooh look at meeee....hey hey hey Harvey" noises and he will soon come running to see what on earth it is you're up to. Don't be in a rush to grab that dummy, just give him a fuss and praise him for coming back, with the dummy in his mouth...then eventually take it from him, gently.
As a baby, I wouldn't worry about the running past too much - and the above will help stop that.
Well he is probably dropping the dummy because you are giving him a treat when he comes back - so in his head it goes like this "the sooner I get back to mum (I am assuming you are female??!) and open my mouth, I get a treat yum yum" and in opening his mouth he drops the dummy.
At this early stage I would try not to use treats - I have had to resort to this with my older dog for various reasons but accept that he now spits before getting to me - an improvement as before he wasn't coming back at all!!
If Harvey isn't keen on coming back, forget treats...get on the floor, make high pitched "heeeeerrreeeee Harvey, come come, oooooh look at meeee....hey hey hey Harvey" noises and he will soon come running to see what on earth it is you're up to. Don't be in a rush to grab that dummy, just give him a fuss and praise him for coming back, with the dummy in his mouth...then eventually take it from him, gently.
As a baby, I wouldn't worry about the running past too much - and the above will help stop that.
Heelwork is lovely!
Hi, Thanks for the reply.
Why assume I'm female?
I understand exactly why he dropped the dummy at my feet... because he was anticipating the treat. I did say this in my post. The problem was caused by using treats yes, but was fixed easily, as shown in the vid. I don't snatch the dummy either, he has to hold it out for me to take. He hasn't dropped since that video clip. Treats helped get him coming DIRECTLY back, QUICKLY, when praising and noise etc didn't work. I had more success using 2 dummies so I could throw 1 and entice him back with the other, and that helped alot but hasn't had the same effect outside in space.
I don't think the treats have caused a problem, I've already phased them out and they've got him running directly back and delivering now. I'd rather use them early to shape the initial behaviour than have to introduce them down the line I think.
Just a tip from someone who's being doing it for a few years now . You are still taking the retrieve too quickly. You want to make much more of your dog coming back to you and being happy to hold the dummy while you praise him, stroke him etc. You are still taking the retrieve far too quickly.
Just a tip from someone who's being doing it for a few years now . You are still taking the retrieve too quickly. You want to make much more of your dog coming back to you and being happy to hold the dummy while you praise him, stroke him etc. You are still taking the retrieve far too quickly.
Looks like its all coming together though.
Hi Jill
Thanks for the tip. I understand what you're saying but I've been making the most of him picking up, holding, and bringing back everything since the day I've had him. Socks, shoes, toys, etc. He's always been encouraged to pick up and hold whatever he gets his jaws round. Doesn't that count? I'll maybe let him hold onto the dummy a few seconds longer but don't see the point if he's bringing it straight back and giving it to me?
Trust me you will see the point later on in your training . Its a means to an end.
Ok, thanks. I suppose it's to train them to sit and hold until you want to take it from them?
I've got that shadowbrae dvd set to help with training but I won't follow it exactly. Only watched the first DVD but I'll probably change certain aspects. Not that I know better, just that some things might be easier for him to learn via techniques he's already familiar with.
The main reason for posting was because most people say food treats is a big NO NO but I think it's worked well to kick start him. I was struggling with the normal methods but using treats for a couple of days, (which have now been phased out anyway) has got him retrieving much much better than he ever was before.
Hi Montie,
I was a little confused about your orginal posting until the last one.
As Jill says, having them hold the dummy a few seconds longer will help immensely. If you are working in the fields and have a couple of birds, one you have to dispatch and your dog comes back with another runner, you want it to sit and wait until you are ready. If it sees another bird come down, turst me it will spit and run after that one. It's all about who's in control.
As to treats. it's horses for courses I think. I have used treats while training for 20 years, and I've never had any problems with it. It's a matter of knowing when and when not to treat. Sounds like you have already worked that one out. Currently, I have 2, 4 month old pups we are training. Neither has retrieved, or have been asked to retrieve anything. If they have something in their mouths, and they bring it to us. We mae a fuss of them. Stroke the head, not the chest. and gently take the item, and immediately give it back if it's something they should have. If not, then swap to something they can have. They have not had balls, dummies or anything thrown for them.
It is very interesting to see the siblings together. The girl is a little sensitive, while the boy is very laid back. Boy walks perfectly to heel, the girl does tend pulls slightly, but she is easily corrected.
We started training at 3 months, and everything at this time is play, with no more than 5 mintues of serious stuff inbetween.
Hi Montie,
I was a little confused about your orginal posting until the last one.
As Jill says, having them hold the dummy a few seconds longer will help immensely. If you are working in the fields and have a couple of birds, one you have to dispatch and your dog comes back with another runner, you want it to sit and wait until you are ready. If it sees another bird come down, turst me it will spit and run after that one. It's all about who's in control.
As to treats. it's horses for courses I think. I have used treats while training for 20 years, and I've never had any problems with it. It's a matter of knowing when and when not to treat. Sounds like you have already worked that one out. Currently, I have 2, 4 month old pups we are training. Neither has retrieved, or have been asked to retrieve anything. If they have something in their mouths, and they bring it to us. We mae a fuss of them. Stroke the head, not the chest. and gently take the item, and immediately give it back if it's something they should have. If not, then swap to something they can have. They have not had balls, dummies or anything thrown for them.
It is very interesting to see the siblings together. The girl is a little sensitive, while the boy is very laid back. Boy walks perfectly to heel, the girl does tend pulls slightly, but she is easily corrected.
We started training at 3 months, and everything at this time is play, with no more than 5 mintues of serious stuff inbetween.
Hi Martin, Thanks.
Think I'll teach a 'hold' command then using treats and a completely different item, toy or something, then can apply it to the gundog work.
Pup's sound great, good luck with them Martin. I sort of done similar with Harvey, only just started doing some proper gundog work now at 6 months old.
It's a bit of a juggling act with Harvey as he's a pet, firstly. Might be a mistake here but for example I don't expect him to walk to a tight heel 100% of the time. I'm trying to teach that on the lead he has the freedom of whatever length I give him without pulling, so it's a relaxed heel. But once I command 'heel' he has to stay right by my side. So I'm trying to differentiate between normal and work mode.
I watched the first 2 shadowbrae dvd's last night. I'm not knocking his methods, he obviously knows what he's doing and is well respected as far as I know, but how comes he starts with some puppy stuff up until they're 4 1/2 months, then it cuts off and he returns with them at 10 months plus? What happened during this 5-6 month period? Once the training continued the dogs looked **** scared of him and are training with their tail between their legs? He actually commented on it, saying it was because she was dubious of people?! She certainly didn't look dubious of people during the early training at 4 1/2 months though. From what I saw she looked dubious of HIM. Soon as he raises his voice they cower down, cross their legs with tail covering He obviously uses the 'hands-on' approach but I wonder how effective it is when he's still having trouble getting his dogs to stay at 10 months +?
I suppose it is effective otherwise his dogs wouldn't have loads of FT awards. Maybe this sort of forceful training is the only way to reach the highest trial standard? Maybe the dog needs to be scared of the handler? I understand this kind of training is commonplace and most trainers teach this way.
The way I see it is there's 2 ends of the spectum. Forceful training so the dog realises he has to do what he's told whether he likes it or not otherwise he'll be punished in a physical way. A psychological approach that manipulates the dog into wanting to do what you want him to do. And everything in between. The stronger bond the handler has with the dog, the stronger this psychological approach becomes as they'll want to perform the commands as they'll want to please the handler? That's my noob take on it anyway.
Some of the methods in that DVD just seem a little outdated to me. I mean I'm a noob and my dog's performing the tasks he's showing in his DVD much more consistently, without all the corrections, and at half the age! So there must be something in these methods? Plus the dog's performing them in a positive way instead of looking nervous and anxious whilst training.
Anyway, I've uploaded a few more of Harvey sit-staying, stop whistle, and recall whistle. I'll stop rambling rubbish now and do one.
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The problem was caused by using treats yes, but was fixed easily, as shown in the vid. I don't snatch the dummy either, he has to hold it out for me to take. He hasn't dropped since that video clip. Treats helped get him coming DIRECTLY back, QUICKLY, when praising and noise etc didn't work. I had more success using 2 dummies so I could throw 1 and entice him back with the other, and that helped alot but hasn't had the same effect outside in space.
He obviously uses the 'hands-on' approach but I wonder how effective it is when he's still having trouble getting his dogs to stay at 10 months +? 
