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Basil Subscriber 08/10/2012 Offline
and Nellie Belly too
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Scroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

Really, just find a new trainer from the apdt or apbc website.

I would have expected much more of a 'to do' list that focusses on improving your 1-2-1 bond with Jenson and that focusses on exerting YOU as the leader......I think twiddling about with the Jenson / Bailey relationship is really small fry in terms of giving you a solution to your problems tbh.

The hardest part of working with a trainer, any trainer, is having the courage to select which parts you want to embrace and which parts you think are a load of tosh Wink

I think the suggestion of walking them separately that you mentioned on another thread is 100% correct for now, so you can focus on working on Jensons issues......these other things just seems like a standard 'list' given out by the trainer - did he visit your home and see them in situ?

In answer to your originial question I think all the things you've listed are to give Jenson independance (v's co-dependance on Bailey) and to artificially exert Bailey as being 'above' Jenson.


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Sarah, Basil and Nellie x
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rachandmurph Subscriber 10/10/2012 Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:02 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

To me, Jenson sounded like he wasn't very confident (the behaviour with other dogs) - the bit about getting him to watch Bailey eat first sounds to me like a rank reduction type thing which I would think could make an unconfident dog worse rather than better..

Mine are all fed separately, Murphy in the hall, Amber one side of the kitchen and Leo on the other and I give out the bowls in age order!!

The putting in the crate rather than with Bailey when your out could be that the trainer thinks Jenson has become over reliant on Bailey and needs to become confident in his own right.

I think Jenson would probably do much better with some sort of rewards based training system/classes to build up his self confidence or maybe even taking up a dog sport. I try and do something separately with each of my dogs - Murphy just has his PAT visits, with Amber I do PAT visits and agility and Leo - obedience and gundog training, later he will also do agility.

As others have said I would look for another trainer.

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Chocice Subscriber 19/08/2012 Offline
Labgirls luv Chocolate
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

I don't go much for creating artificial hierachies among the dogs, I feed both mine at the same time. Both have to sit and wait until released and only go to their own bowls. Then I stay with them and make sure they only eat theirs (Cadbury is the worst) and don't steal. When both dogs are completely finished I've taught them to return to a sit and watch me, when I give the command 'swap' they are allowed to exchange bowls. I've had to be firm a couple of times with Cadbury, but otherwise the system works.

I can understand separating when they are alone as you are not there to check interactions, but not letting Jensen settle when Bailey is in the lounge baffles me. I can't see the logic or the point? I could understand if he said have Jensen on a lead when Bailey was settling in the lounge so he couldn't torment him, but not letting him settle at all seems odd? Confused

With all other activities, giving toys/treats etc, I never do one dog first, in fact sometimes its who gets their first, (for instance when recalling into a house).

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-Angela- Subscriber 23/12/2012 Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postTweet This Post

Mooz wrote:

-Angela- wrote:
The whole idea of making one dog watch the other eat is just bizarre to me.


Angela, I've HAD to do that with mine before now, not for "hierarchy" purposes though. Ivan used to insist on wolfing down his dinner, then trying to muscle in on Milly's dinner before she'd finished. In the end Milly got pretty sick of it herself, and ended up giving him a pasting.....he never did it again.


Oh ours all know not to approach another dog's bowl while they are still eating and that they can approach when the other dog has walked away. I've just taught them to wait once they have finished, until the other has too, but this "trainer" is talking about making one dog sit through the other dog eating their whole meal first, I think, which is not something I'd choose to do Smile


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sarah111 Subscriber 26/02/2013 Offline
lead trained
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

I give Bailey the treat first and Jenson just watches out of the corner of his eye and then he gets his, Jenson is so food orientated and he sits and waits to be released to eat his food and is good at leave (if you put a treat down) which is good for Jenson as he lives for food Very Happy

As for at home when I go out as far as I can gather they both sleep, when I'm there Bailey comes and goes upstairs as he pleases but Jenson stays down (time apart) they never fight occasional play, sleep next to each other sometimes (Jensons choice Bailey is happy alone) But this is a big improvement on first getting Jenson as bailey didn't want him near.

Jenson stays in his room behind gate at night and Bailey is in the lounge so they are totally separate all night.

Jenson last 3 days of walks alone (no Bailey) have been good, a dog has approached everyday. Jenson was on lead and on the first day he cowered down,tail between legs same again on days 2 and day 3 tail was wagging fur still up but seemed happy there was no barking,lunging or
snapping what so ever on either days so thats a very good start.

Thanks Sarah


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Bailey and Jenson

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paws  Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

Don't know Sarah but if it doesn't seem right or is unworkable in your house then to my mind its no good anyway because even if you did follow his advice rigidly for a bit you'd soon get fed up if it and all it would have achieved is you getting miserable as well...

Have you pm-ed Lizi or Diana because I bet they would be able to shed some light on this for you?

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_Jules_ Subscriber 25/06/2012 Offline
And the Girls
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

The only thing I would carry on doing out of that list is walking them seperately, as Jenson needs to find his feet and gain confidence on his own.

As I said before, some seperate time, wouldn't do them any harm, as it would give Jenson a chance to bond better with you and your OH rather than rely so heavily on Bailey, but other than that, all the rest of the advise is just out dated, misunderstood, misinterpretted Dominance Theory Bunkum.

If there was such an Alpha Male and Submissive Follower thing going on, then you mucking about with it, trying to alter that will only make things 10 times worse anyway. It's always best to allow them to fit the position in the "pack" which suits them better. Otherwise it's like thrusting the painfully shy child to the front of the stage and making it sing solo, when the outgoing child is kept frustrated behind the curtain as a Stage Hand. No one will be happy.

Give this Trainer and his advise the Heave Ho and find another. One who really knows what he's talking about, instead of talking out of his backside. Wink


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Jules, Mojo, Pickle, Pood and Twoee.

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dirtychicken Subscriber 14/03/2013 Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

I have to agree with what has already been said, Sarah. It sounds as if your trainer is working from a rather outdated method of dog training Confused

I had a lurcher who had severe separation anxiety and, although he was our only dog, we were advised by a behaviourist to do a lot of things that you've been told to do (this would have been about 8 years ago) and segregate him as much as possible from the family and to drum into him that he was insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I had to eat before him, then pretend to eat from his bowl, shut him out of the room at all times, never fuss him if he asked for attention, make sure I went through doorways first, move his bed frequently so that he knew I controlled where he slept and so on and so on. Already a sensitive soul, he became a nervous wreck who then shut down completely Sad When I eventually realised what had happened, I went back to "normal" life with him partaking in whatever he could. We never sorted his separation anxiety, but he certainly had a happy life Very Happy

I would also echo the warnings about messing too much with pack dynamics. Flora was our top dog (well, just below me Wink ) and when she died it was all a bit strange for everyone. Bran (my male lab) is not the leader type and the puppies were only 4 months old, but still Casey (yorkie x chihuahua bitch) stepped smoothly and quietly into Flora's shoes and now - at just 9 1/2 months - rules our roost quite happily. She's not the biggest dog in our house by a long shot and is exactly the same age as her brother (who also lives with us), but she is a very confident bitch and I think that has won over everything else and I just have to let it be. As much as I would like my older, bigger, steadier lab to be in charge, that's just not how it's meant to be and I think it would destroy Bran if I was to force that much responsibility on to him.

I do hope that you find a happy ground for your family though, but do trust your instincts. You know your boys far far better than anyone else and only you can determine what will make things better at the end of the day Very Happy


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Sarah and Bran
Always watched over with love by our angel, Flora, from Rainbow Bridge
Bran Training
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barneysma  Offline
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Go to Top of PageScroll Up to Previous postScroll Down to Next postGo to last Post of PageTweet This Post

Yes I too would keep the separate walks and give each dog some time out on their own at home.

I also would look for another trainer. I am not trying to upset anyone on here when I say that because they are on a list on a website and have qualifications does not necessarily mean that they are good trainers (there is one local to here on an approved list, recommended by our vet, but who I decided not to use after talking to her, as I did not like her methods at all - she was talking about giving Barney medication to calm him down before she had even met him, and my friend had a bad experience with her too). Perhaps you could try to find one through personal recommendation, asking other dog walkers etc? Are there specific reasons you chose the trainer you have now?

Do you go to a training class? If not that may be an idea to help Jenson's confidence and socialisation and you could talk to the trainer there about the situation.


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Sara, Barney and Amber

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