Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: Weaning litter pups BARF supplements 7 weeks old?
Hi,
I'm new to this forum so nice to meet you!
I breed working Springer Spaniels and decided, as our family Labrador Ells loves every baby born and spends more time with the pups than their mums usually do, to let her have just one litter.
She had a litter of 10 but sadly developed eclampsia on day 3, which within 2 days had developed into full blown mastitis despite me getting her checked out at the vets several times during that last 2 days... locum vet completely useless but that's another story. From day 4 I hand reared these pups using Welpi although Ells helped, when she was feeling well enough, to clean them up and gaze at them adoringly.
Sadly we lost 2 pups as most of them contracted a bacterial infection from Ells infected teat... again the locum gave very bad advice and stupidly I followed it despite *knowing* in my heart that letting them feed from her was not the right thing to do... by this time I was a zombie as no sleep etc. so not functioning as I would normally do I suppose.
Anyway remaining 8 pups are fit and healthy now, almost 7 weeks old and utterly adorable! They follow me about and although I know they will soon be going to their new families, the thought of my babies going is killing me... hand rearing is both wonderful and upsetting!!
I started weaning them at 3 weeks as by that time my hands were red raw from the pups kneading me and they were ready by that time. I, as I always do, started with raw mince balls and they took to it brilliantly. After a few days I started introducing the soaked Skinners puppy kibble as I have always used this for the Springers with excellent results. This coincided with worming (left it a week longer than usual on vets advice as the pups were still getting over their infections). Overnight we had a mass of runny poo! I was undecided as to whether it was the wormer or the food. They were well and lively, eating and drinking well with no temperature changes so left it a couple of days. Nothing changed so I took the worst 3 to the vet and they could find nothing wrong. I gave them all pro kolin thinking it might have been the effects from the antibiotics but this didn't help at all despite spending a fortune buying the syringes by the bucket load. I sent in 2 pooled samples of poo to be checked and nothing was found. I re-wormed this time with panacur, again nothing changed. The vet told me not to change the food as this would probably make them worse and told me to keep using the pro kolin. I gave them goats yoghurt, protexin... basically anything to try and sort out their poor tummies.
By this time I was getting desperate! Pups were still mega healthy apart from the pancake poo
I spent hours googling the problem and found the BARF diet so decided to give that a go. I found a great supplier near to us who supplied me with our first order of 14kg of mince, 14kg of whole chicken mince, some chicken wings and tripe. Literally overnight their poo became perfect again, not a sign of the runs since we started 10 days ago. It was nothing short of miraculous!!
I am now giving them:
Breakfast 7.00am. 1kg of mince (I alternate daily the chicken/beef mince) with added shredded veggies (usually carrots, courgettes, a little potato, red pepper, celery, green beans etc.) I make this up the night before and it lasts all 4 feeds.
Brunch 11.00am. The same as above but give them a piece of fruit afterwards either a pear, apple, melon or banana.
Lunch 3.00pm. The same as above without the fruit.
Dinner 7.00pm. The same as above with some chunks of raw veg afterwards for them to chew on and play with.
Supper 10.00pm. I give them a handful of chicken wings which they munch happily on, with me watching obviously.
I replace one of their meals every 4 days with a 500g pack of minced tripe and just use half the amount of chicken/beef mince at that meal to increase it to a kg.
The 8 pups weigh approx. 5.5kg atm with a couple nearly 6kg and one little boy who is 4.9kg (last weighing 3 days ago). They are almost 7 weeks old.
Now yesterday I had a bit of time on my hands so googled for a while and basically scared myself stupid reading dire warnings of imminent death of the litter due to the BARF diet. Most of these articles seem to have been written by vets which made it worse. Food poisoning, ripped intestines due to the bones, death because of a lack of proper vitamins and minerals...the list was endless!
By the evening feed I was in a complete state and when I took the chicken wings out of the fridge after defrosting I smelt them and decided they were off so couldn't use them... I'm certain they weren't but such is the power of google! Having no mince defrosted I gave them some kibble telling myself that maybe now the runs were sorted it would be ok. They pounced on them and wolfed them down.
This morning I have come down to sloppy poo, not anywhere near as bad but decidedly sloppy and very smelly again I'm certain that another meal of kibble will result in us being back to pancakes again. I had got the mince out the freezer and made the veggie mix last night so they wolfed down a decent breakfast again.
Now what I would please like help with from you experienced BARF'ers is this:
Could you please tell me if their diet is ok as it is? I haven't given them offal other than the tripe as wasn't sure if I should. If I should which would be the best to use please?
I haven't given them egg yet as Mum gets a runny tummy with eggs... should I try and if so should I also give them the crushed shells as they are so young?
Should I be giving them any supplements such as Omega 3, Turmeric etc.?
Are they getting enough calcium? I gave them some goats milk a couple of times but this seemed to make the poo runnier although it was when they were on kibble. They have stopped the Welpi now and drinking water well.
Any suggestions would be gratefully received and if my menu is bad please let me know so I can do what is best for these pups.
I have to say they are very healthy pups and growing well. They are not overly fat (Mum was massive when we brought her home from her breeders... the diet sheet she gave us was ridiculous 4 raw eggs for breakfast etc. and more at night before bed!!) I don't want that for our pups as it was a nightmare getting the weight off her.
They are doing everything they should do and more lol and are very cheeky pups with heaps of personality!! I adore them as you can see
I have never raised a BARF litter, but I am sure there is a book called "Grow your pups with Bones", having read the authurs other books I am sure this will reasure you and maybe give you more hints.
Raising a BARF litter is something I would love to do, but lacked that sort of time with my last litter. Some of my pups also had loose stools on the SKinners F&T Puppy, just goes to show not all puppy foods suit all puppies.
Hi and welcome to LF sorry to read you've had such a rough time with your girlie and litter .
Am moving your post to the breeding section so experienced breeders will see it
If it were me because I just know that most new puppy owners that take on these pups will not want to continue down the BARF route I would actually try them on Nature's Diet Puppy. Have found myself, and heard good reports on feeding this and it is something that your puppy buyers will be happy to continue using. Just an idea for you.
Just as an aside I never worm my pups with Panacur, always Drontal. I would blame the Panacur for the runny poo problem rather than the Skinners Field and Trial Puppy. That's just my opinion though.
Thank you for moving it, doh I should have thought of that!!
As for the new owners tbh there is not much I can do about that. I will give them all the information I can and if they decide to keep up the BARF then great but if they want to try a kibble again it will be their decision.
The pups like munching kibble and if they manage to find one that suits them then great, at the end of the day it will be their choice.
The only other thing I can do is try other kibbles myself but as we only have a week or so before they go I don't want to go down that route as moving to a new family setting is hard enough for the babies without a poor tummy at the same time.
I can't leave them on this kibble as I wouldn't be able to let them go if they were still loose, which I'm certain they would be. I don't think there's an easy answer.
Thanks for the info on the book, I will do a search for it!
As said, to many people feeding BARF is too time consuming, it isn`t of course if you plan it properly but many don`t have the time.
That said there`s no more danger in feeding a dog, pup or adult with a BARF diet than feeding kibble, dogs have been known to choke on that too.
CJ was brought up on BARF until recently (got too expensive) from around 3 months, I also had a a Westie who was 7 at that time and she moved to BARF with no problems at all, both of them loved it and I still get CJ bones when I can or chicken portions (wings etc).
Your diet seems ok to me, we have a member who wrote a comprehensive menu on feeding BARF you can find it here
Thanks, I wormed them the first time at 3 weeks with Drontal and then again on the vets advice at 5 and a half weeks with Panacur in-case they had hidden Giardia as it doesn't always show up in stool samples, even pooled ones over 3 days.
I did think maybe the runs were due to the worming but from this mornings fiasco of runny tums again after 10 days of perfect poo's, which incidentally after their 2 BARF meals this morning, have completely cleared up again I can only think it is the kibble.
Strangely I give the pups occasional treats of raw veggies and fruits if they seem extra hungry in-between meals and yesterday I gave them some small pieces of wholemeal toast to chew on, something I do with the Springers and they love them. Most of the pieces were ignored and those that did get nibbled were spat out... something the pups never do; any treats are gone within a few minutes. Weird.
I always treat my bitches for gardia(with Paracur) prior to them being mated(not after), so there is no fear of it being passed on.
We all have out own way of dealing with things. I used to work for Hearing Dogs for the Deaf though and we had big problems with upset tummies and runny poos from the pups not only just after being wormed with Panacur but afterwards as well. We thought that it must be the panacur striping the good bacteria (together with the worms) from the stomachs and therein giving future problems.
I suppose the other option is to treat with Panacur and then replace the good bacteria which I guess is what the prokolin paste is for.
I would have to know that all was fine before moving the pups on though (my litter are all going to there new homes this weekend) and would struggle if I thought that new puppy owners would change the food to kibble and the pups have problems again. I think its a better idea to get all the tummies settled on a food that the new owners will continue to use.
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Weaning litter pups BARF supplements 7 weeks old?
