Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: Water Retrieve Help!!!
Evening Folks
50pence question with a £50,000 answer here.
How can I stop Jenson from dropping the dummy at the waters edge, shaking off the excess water, lifting the dummy and proceeding with the retrieve?
He is slowly getting the hang of the "hold" command, which has only been 2 days in progress, but no matter how exciting I make it for him to come to me he either stops at the waters edge or drops the dummy early and shakes off infront of me and forgets all about bringing the dummy to my hand.
Really really frustrated about this. Almost everything else I have been able to adapt my training to suit him and bring him into line, but this is just flat out impossible.
I have tried moving a great distance from the water, which meant he just ran all the way to me before dropping the dummy 2-6 feet early and then shaking off.
Need to stop this within 2 weeks, Jenson and I have been invited to a shoot on the 6th August (to get him used to a day of shooting, perhaps some work if he is behaving himself) and a trial on the 13th August.
I'm a newbie handler so other people will be better placed to comment than me, but:
Is his hold/delivery rock solid on dry land/normal retrieves? If not, the advice I have been given in the past is sort that out 110% and only then move on to water.
What happens if you get IN the water beside your dog? Does he hold and deliver nicely then? With one of my dogs, I got in the water right up to the tops of my wellies and beyond if need be to ensure I got it in my hand before any chance to shake or drop, and then gradually worked back to dry land.
I think the pressure of having a deadline to work to for these things is helpful to a degree, but can also be a real hindrance. It will take as long as it takes and if you rush to try and get this sorted, in my experience of doing exactly the same, the wheels might well fall off somewhere else. So, try to take the pressure off yourself a bit. Chances are, at the shoot day, it will be a case of getting him used to sitting about and doing a LOT of NOTHING but watching, sitting, being steady, being calm, being quiet. I wouldn't want mine getting much or indeed ANY retrieves the very first day/time they are out.
Get as close to the waters edge as is possible and encourage the dog in to you with whatever loony means it takes!
As Mo says, is he pretty reliable at other times or does he have a tendency to spit? If he's not reliable then work on that.
One of the best ways I find to get them to come right to me out of water is to quickly back away from them waving my arms! It makes them just curious enough to come to me, whereupon we exchange dummy and then they shake. I always accompany any exchange with a shake command and then follow up with a good shake!
Practice practice practice. It will click. Once they are coming into you at the waters edge... just move back a couple of feet until eventually it doesn't matter where you are they hold it until you give that shake command.
What you don't mention is how old your dog is? Has he been on game at all yet?
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Okay to start from the beginning, this is my (my own, not family) first dog, and also my first dog being trained for field work.
Im a bit of a pussy when it comes to blood, dead animals, etc and as such I had him retrieving and dropping at my feet prior to resting at the heel position.
When i say this was solid, we could do it all day long and not fail once.
Now, somewhere along the line, whatever we have done, he wont hold an object unless parading around with it in proud puppy fashion. As such, I am now having to retrain the "hold" which he is warming too despite his initial hatred of my hand in his mouth, once i took my hand from the glove, and just used the glove itself, he improved ten fold. Will happily hold a 1lb dummy for up to a minute (its only been 2 days of this training) and understands the drop command. Happily goes from sitting to walking at heel whilst holding, so I am lead to believe the hardest bit is done, its just a case of building up his ability to hold for long duration now.
So back to the retrieve. I have since learnt that dropping at the feet is an almost unforgivable feature in a retrieve. So I have managed to get him to drop it to my hand in a cricket catch type action. Im taking this as one step closer to my goal and not as a set back, i just need to keep working on getting him to hold onto the dummy no matter what happens.
If i send him after a thrown dummy, and throw a secondary one upon his return, he will stop, watch where it lands then continue his initial retrieve and finish off in the heel position awaiting the "away" command before getting the second dummy.
So it really is just the water I am worried about, everything else I can work with.
If i get down to the waters edge, he will still bring it to my hand providing i am squatting down to catch it.
If i call "hold" whilst he is coming towards me, it doesnt make any difference whatsoever.
On a plus point, it took half an hour for him to fully understand and use the stop command even at huge distances. Well chuffed about that one.
Thank you for your responses, everything helps at this stage
EDIT: Feebarn, his is 16 months now. Only game he has seen or known yet is rabbit and pheasant scent on a dummy covered with rabbit skin.
Pete
Last edited by PeteMoore on Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
oh and.... if you are a bit squeamish, how are you going to get over the whole dead and dying bird thing? It really isn't going to work if you let him drop things, even into your hands if you aren't aware of your responsibility. You realise that you will need to swiftly dispatch birds that aren't dead?
If he drops a bird that isn't dead, you realise that bird will just leg it!
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Whether or not I enter is another thing. But I feel I have done fairly well with him so far and I know for a fact he wouldn't cause mischief amongst other dogs and people so if someones nose is out of joint from me entering and they don't deem either of us to be of a standard then i simply throw the head up and wont go back to that club/meet/etc - coming from a motorsport background, we welcome anyone and everyone no matter their experience or ability - if my willingness to learn and my ability (or lack thereof) to teach my dog isnt good enough for the hoy polloy, then i'll stick to the decent people I know who will accept us and understand neither of us are programmed machines.
His behaviour is impeccable, but my concern solely lies within the water retrieve at the minute.
I know that any habits he has gotten into are entirely down to how we have handled him as a pup, and I have come to deal with that, I do wish i could go back and just start again, but unfortunately I cant and I am doing everything in my power to bring him up to the "expected standard" (read as a minimum of 1hr a day outdoors and 1hr a day static indoors)
oh and.... if you are a bit squeamish, how are you going to get over the whole dead and dying bird thing? It really isn't going to work if you let him drop things, even into your hands if you aren't aware of your responsibility. You realise that you will need to swiftly dispatch birds that aren't dead?
If he drops a bird that isn't dead, you realise that bird will just leg it!
haha, a pair of gloves fixes everything
Its the only way I have found I have no problem with handling the dead birds - and I am fully aware of the wounded doing a runner if dropped, hence my desire to knock this trait on the head asap.
I want to do these events, and I wish to be good at them, but more than all of that, I want my wee pup to follow in the footsteps of the 25 FT champs on his family tree
I think I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I too taught my first dog to drop and thought I was the bees knees for having managed to do that. Then I started learning about all things gundoggery and realised a cardinal sin had been committed, and it really was the devil's work training in 'hold' and 'dead' after she'd been used to spitting at my feet on command, for ***gasp*** a TREAT If it's any consolation, she's actually far better on fur and feather than on canvas and her hold is a million times better on the real thing; so it might be similar with your dog too.
Right-o: I reckon as well as your 'hold' command, you could do with introducing a release 'dead' 'give' whatever command too. Cricket catches are all well and good, but what are you going to do when you have a flapping bird that's only pricked, who will swiftly leg it in between the dog releasing it and you catching it to humanely despatch it?
It sounds like your dog is anticipating you taking the dummy/bird whenever you move forward, put your hand down etc. I've been there and got that t-shirt too. What I was taught to do is get the dog used to being quietly praised and fussed when holding something. At that stage it doesn't matter if they waggle about in and around you. Then get them used to standing in front of you while they hold and you are able to stroke all round their head, put your hand under their chin and so on, without them releasing until you tell them to.
"If i get down to the waters edge, he will still bring it to my hand providing i am squatting down to catch it"
Just keep going with that then. Take very small steps backwards until he will come 1 step without shaking, two steps without shaking, and so on. This might take a good few weeks. Or, you've said he'll heel and hold. You could try smartly turning round and marching away telling him to heel and take it from him on the move before he has a chance to shake.
Are you going to a trainer who is helping you train towards working and trialling? If so, see what they suggest about it and go with their training plan.
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If it's any consolation, she's actually far better on fur and feather than on canvas and her hold is a million times better on the real thing; so it might be similar with your dog too.
