Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:52 am Post subject: Those EIC puppies: the facts
I've posted this as a new topic to ensure that the facts about the 17 puppies being discussed in the Labrador EIC thread, how we came to have them, and their future, are understood. I am impressed with the civilised and sensible postings. Hopefully we can get something very positive out of the situation. Apologies if this post is long.
We were called by the bitches' owner on a Monday morning, as their personal circumstances had changed, they could not keep them, and they were extremely distressed and worried that they could end up with backstreet or incompetent breeders. As KCAB, we knew each other through a few contacts over the years. All of the parents of the imminent pups were hip, elbow and annually eye tested, and optigen clear of prcd PRA. The bitches concerned are of their breeding; the dogs were bought by them.
We went to see them on the Tuesday morning. Seeing the upset and stress of the owners, we agreed to take 2 immediately and 3 the following day. We would furnish accomodation for them using equipment from their original home; guarantee the safety and future of the dog and bitches concerned; and whelp, home and support the puppies and their new owners to our KCAB+ standard.
All of "our own" dogs are tested as above, plus for CNM, EIC and narcolepsy. We therefore immediately tested all 5 newcomers for the "missing" conditions to bring the information up to our level, at a cost of £182 per individual. As a result, we discovered that we could have EIC affecteds in the litters. As soon as they were old enough to microchip, we had them chipped and then EIC tested all 17 of the pups, at a cost of £68 + chipping per pup. (Bill so far for DNA testing £2066)
We had put our full effort into homing the 17, and this means that we had almost 17 families waiting for the pups to be old enough to choose. In fairness to those people, we informed them all of the situation as soon as we knew of it. We wouldn't like to be told on arriving to choose a puppy, with (say) children who were about to meet their first dog, that there was a problem, when we could have been forewarned!
However, telling those families ASAP means that we couldn't tell them what the extent of the problem was. We now have all but one result back, and the repeat swabs for that one are already on the way back to the lab.
All of our puppies, and this is extended to these 17 in our care, come with support for life, a full health record including DNA test profile and parents' health profile, an endorsement R to ensure that any breeding from them is done to the same standard of care and with the same level of DNA health profiling as we do (only we can lift that endorsement, and our conditions are very strict.)
We now know that we have EIC/EIC ("affected") puppies in the litters. These are known and identified (by microchip). All are thriving, and healthy in every way, and are guaranteed for life against PRA, CNM and narcolepsy, but we know that they will all be affected to some degree by EIC. All of the ohers will come with our usual lifetime guarantee against PRA, CNM, EIC, and narcolepsy. They all come from single figure hip scored, zero elbow scored and clear eye tested parents.
I would not be advising anyone to walk away from the clears or carriers in these litters, under the actual circumstances, but those of you who have given that advice in the earlier thread were not in a position to know the facts then.
So, what about the EIC/EIC affected pups?
For Mr Angry (who thankfully hasn't put in a posting yet), they will all have good lives, and will all be useful both to the public level of understanding about EIC and to their owners. They won't be put to sleep.
As we understand it (and we are on knowledge catchup fast track here), they won't be incurring huge vet treatment bills or insurance problems as this is not a condition requiring treatment. As we understand it there is no treatment available.
We will not be allowing them to go to homes where the new owners seem bound to expose them to high levels of excitement, or have a reasonable expectation of high intensity activity, or (frankly) don't show us that they understand the advice we are giving them about the disease.
They will never have the R endorsement lifted, and will all be neutered at the normal age.
The new homes will agree to keep us fully informed on all health issues, to let us see the puppies fairly regularly, and to complete a health report each year. This should give useful information for the future, as the EIC related gene defects of the affecteds are identical in all of them (geneticists will recognise this, I will explain it if anyone posts asking me to).
All of the affected puppies, and their new owners, will form a mutual support group which we will make sure is there for their lifetimes. All of our puppy owners know that we offer 24 hour phone support plus email support.
Will anyone who has booked one of these puppies be left with an affected puppy they don't want? No: we won't lumber any of our puppies with an owner who doesn't suit them and can't be happy with them. Some of the prospective owners will find that we don't have enough clears or carriers for them and that we do not think they are suitable owners for an affected. They will either have their deposits back or have higher pick priority on later litters from us, like anyone who books a puppy that we don't get for them.
So who in their right mind would take an affected puppy? A partial answer is:
someone who has the experience, understanding and self control to look out for signs of the condition and to limit excitement and exercise to a level that doesn't trigger an episode; or
someone whose physical exercise levels are low and isn't actually suitable to own a full on working labrador if they are honest about it; or
someone who needs a loving dog that can be trained to do things that need to be done calmly and gently; or...
your turn to suggest the sort of people who would find themselves perfect for one of these pups and vice versa.
We will sort out the unsuitability issue.
Mr Angry, please don't get involved. Everyone says they will never ring us at 2 a.m with a worry about their puppy, and every year we get some calls at that time. Mr Angry, you are not invited into my bedroom even on the phone...
Cheers,
Dom and Jan,
High house Labradors
Last edited by highhouse on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Oh my goodness - just looking at the time you posted this must give us an idea of what has been going on
Thank you for clarifying the position.
As I said in an earlier post (based only on the facts available at the time) - it seems that you are dealing with this difficult situation in the best way possible and should be congratulated for doing so.
Good luck with finding the right home for each puppy.
Full marks too for ensuring that all of your own dogs are FULLY healthtested!
what a wonderful thing you have done for those dogs.
I commented early on in the thread, unaware of circumstances in this case. If the right homes are found then fantastic but on the info we had originally when i posted i still stick by what i said.
____________ Sam, Coal & Finn
It�s never too late to be what you might have been
All photographs remain copyrighted to me with al
Many thanks for your clear, precise post. I do feel that "a few" were still misunderstanding what was being said in the original thread and your clarification has cleared up any anomalies.
Well done you for dealing with this matter in the correct way.
You have broad shoulders and thats quite a tale! Good luck with the homings and you have my respect for taking on this situation most would not (not because of the EIC results, but just 17 unexpected puppies! Wow!)
Best
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
I made a mistake in the "facts" above: I was tired. There are two litters involved, and therefore there are two different groups, identical in their EIC defect within each group, but each group possibly not identical to the other group. (Sorry, but it's repetitive to be precise: I'm a physicist.)
This means that it should be possible to see differences in the effect on the pups within one litter and look at whether the health reports from their homes show any clear differences, and also see whether there are differences between the litters.
This has come in as a PM, and I think it is worth replying on the forum. The only changes I have made to the PM are by using the delete key to remove anything that could identify the sender:
"Hi Dom & Jan
I hope you don't mind me getting in touch via private message.
I have just read your post re the EIC affected puppies and wanted to praise you on the way you have handled this difficult situation.
My 14mth old lab has recently had a couple of collapses during exercise. I took her to the vet and, so far, she has had an x-ray and blood tests to try to determine why this is happening. These have both come back clear. I first heard of EIC on labrador forums when I posted my concerns re collapsing. However when I mentioned the condition to my vet he seemed very dismissive of it, saying it was very exagerated on the internet and his opinion was that there is no need to test.
I'm not happy with this and would like to get the test done. If the test comes back that she is affected then at least I know and then can manage it.
I just wanted to ask you about how I go about getting the test done. Is it best to go via the vets or deal directly with the university of minnesota? I hope you don't mind me asking you for advice. I just thought that with your recent experience of having those puppies tested you may be able to advise me on where I go from here.
Thankyou"
Our reply is:
Hi,
Neither!
We recommend and use Laboklin for all of our testing: www.laboklin.co.uk
They are excellent technically, and their turnround times are always as good as they say on their website in our experience. They aren't Minnesota, but they use the test identical to Minn, under licence and exactly as Minn do it (otherwise it wouldn't work). They pay Minn for the license, I'm sure, so there is no conflict! THERE ARE LOTS OF TESTING FIRMS, AND ALL ARE EXCELLENT. Put EIC test into your search engine to find them, their prices and their turnround times. UK mail is quicker than Europe or the States for the swab packet. We have absolutely no connection with Laboklin, but as we do a lot of testing we need the fast turnround times they actually achieve.
The way to test is as follows:
Send an email to info@laboklin.co.uk and ask them to send swabs (free)to test your labrador for EIC, and if you have any intention of breeding get swabs for PRA, CNM, narcolepsy and any new tests that are coming out.
Feed your dog(s) at the normal time. Later or straight away, give them a short walk (to relieve themselves), give them clean drinking water in a clean bowl in a clean crate (or other clean place) with clean bedding. Put them into the crate and leave them there with absolutely no physical contact with you or any other dogs for 2 hours minimum. Overnight is better if the dog sleeps in a crate anyway.
Wear rubber or plastic "medical type" gloves (not big thick gardening gloves), and rub the swabs very firmly on the inside of the dog's cheeks according to the instructions supplied by the testing firm. You are trying to rub cheek cells onto the swab. Follow the rest of the instructions carefully, in terms of the drying of the swabs, packaging, labelling, posting and so on.
On the form, tick the boxes for "Report to Owner" and "Report by email"
Wait for a full week and a bit. Don't worry (yeah, right!!!). The results will arrive by email as a PDF. If you haven't done the swabbing corectly, or have sent a damp swab that has gone mouldy, or have destroyed the DNA by using a hairdryer, you will be asked to send a new set of swabs, still free but prolonging the wait for your results.
If you don't feel competent to do the swabbing, you can pay your vet to do it for you or to take a blood sample instead. I haven't included any vet cost in my calcs in the first post. We do it ourselves.
For a reliable result, you need to be really careful about isolating the dog(s) to be tested. The test works by looking for both EIC normal DNA (N), and for EIC defective DNA (EIC). If it finds only N, then the dog must be N/N (clear); if it finds both N and EIC then the dog is N/EIC (carrier); if it finds only EIC then there is no N, so the dog is EIC/EIC (affected). Simple.
HOWEVER, if the test finds only N from the dog you are interested in, plus a tiny smidge of EIC from the dog's companion, then hey presto, you get N and EIC and a carrier result for your clear pooch. Not great, but nothing like as bad as if the test finds only EIC from your affected puppy plus a smidge of N from its companion, and now you are in trouble: you get a result that it is a carrier and a hideous shock when it collapses because you have the wrong info. The test can only be done on the swabs you submit, and you are responsible for getting the isolation right!
I will give a breakdown of the costs of testing fully in another post, along with why it isn't something to fear and the benefits to you of doing it. Right now there are 17 pups to feed, and the outside possibility that some of them haven't emptied themselves all over the place...
Cheers,
Dom and Jan
edited later to say; the reference to UK Mail means mail to a UK address rather than to Europe or USA, not the firm UK Mail which I have just discovered exists!!!
Last edited by highhouse on Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Can I just commend you for the amazing effort and care that you have taken towards these puppies - they are very lucky. Thank you also for the information you provided about EIC. I'd not heard of the condition before and I'm certain it's not something the breeder of my dog tested for, lovely as they were.
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