Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: Reward based training styles
Hi all,
I'm new to this training lark and have been searching the net picking up different training styles so I can formulate my own training programme to start with my future pup. I want everything planned out and clear in my own mind ahead of time.
I first found Ian Dunbar who I like, have picked up lots from him, really like reward based training and his style but found myself looking for something more precise. I then found Michael Ellis and really like what he does, similar philosophy but he seems to be at the next level, very precise training style. Slightly annoying the way Leerburg have put the videos together as it's really drawn out and the length could easily be condensed into half the time, but quality teachings all the same.
So between them 2 I've got the foundation for my training. I want to socialise my puppy but don't want to take him to a training class that will contradict the training I'm setting out. Such as classically conditioning the reward command at the same time as the 'look' command and collar contact. Or him learning a particular reward command as well as encouragement voice signal. Or teaching the sit, down, stand in a way so their shoulders stay static. I notice most trainers including Dunbar doesn't teach this way as they lure the dog forward to stand....
Does anyone know of Michael Ellis and if any trainers in Essex teach the same style? I don't really want to do all the training at home and just take him for the exams as I cant see any other way of socialising him at that age without puppy training classes?
I suppose calling the trainers and asking would be my best bet but interested in what you peeps think, surely there's a few trainers on here?
What are your long term plans for your pup? Do you want to go down the gun dog route, obedience, something else or just have a well behaved pet? This may have some impact on the type of training you need.
I can't comment on any local training clubs as I don't live in your area but what you need to do is ask around, look for recommendations, see what other people say and then visit without your dog to observe their training methods. APDT registered trainers usually use kind methods and are worth looking at (the APDT web site will list those in your area).
Remember that all dogs learn differently and what suits one may not suit another. In general Labs are very food orientated so usually work well for treats, however, I have found that Coco has become quite ball obsessed so for agility she will work much better for a ball in my hand than a treat.
Gwen Bailey's book - The Perfect Puppy is a good starter and you might also like to have a look at clicker training (eg. Karen Pryor - Clicker Training For Dogs).
Don't get too hung up on training your new puppy, you need to take time to enjoy him. The best socialisation is to take him places with you any place you can so that he can have lots of new experiences in his first few weeks. You can carry him around everywhere until his vaccinations kick in.
Or teaching the sit, down, stand in a way so their shoulders stay static.
I'm assuming if you are aiming for this, you are wanting to take your pup down the Competition Obedience route? If so it'll be worth your while looking for a Comp OB instructor or class rather than getting too hung up on any one training style.
Socialising with other dogs and training are two different things in my opinion. Yes, I do like to take mine training where there are other dogs around to act as a distraction, however to me that isn't socialisation. That happens when the dog is running round off lead in the park with it's mates. It really DOES need to get on and play with other dogs without you interfering too much, as this is the only way it'll learn doggy manners and all the subtleties of Dog Language. By keeping the pup on lead or in a controlled training type environment, it learns nothing of these.
Also, as Pam said above, one training style may work for one pup, but it doesn't necessarily produce the same results for another. They are living, breathing, THINKING beings, so you have to be flexible in your training approach, often stepping back and rethinking your methods if something isn't going quite right. For example, I've Clicker Trained with some of mine and it worked fantastically, yet others of mine just don't seem to "Get" the Clicker and feel happier with a more direct Hands On approach.
Dogs are DOGS not robots, where if you push Button A and flick Switch B you get Result C, so it's up to us to work with their personalities, intelligence levels and individual quirks to get the best we can out of them.
Flexibility is the key and this is where a good, experienced trainer in the area of competition you wish to go into is invaluable, because they will tailor the training to the dog to get the results, not the other way round.
Most of all though, have FUN with your pup. Not all dogs are cut out for what we think we'd like to do with them. I used to Puppy Walk for Guide Dogs and as much as all the pups had pretty much the same experiences and training, about 1 in 5 never made the grade. They just simply were never meant to be Guide Dogs and the same can be said in every field of competition. This however doesn't make them any less of a loving, loyal companion though and it also doesn't mean you can't find another area of training/competition the dog and yourself can enjoy and excel at.
My plan is to achieve a high standard of obedience, would like to show him, and would also like to maybe introduce him to field trails as well after he's a year old.
I know all dogs wont achieve this easily but hoping to choose a lively, inquisitive character pup that should take to training. I wouldn't go mad with training to start with. I know its more important to forge a relationship with my pup and become good friends to start with. I would only train in short sessions when I have his full attention. I would keep the training positive and as playful as possible so the pup enjoys it. Clicker training isn't for me, I prefer verbal commands. I'll have to see what reward works best but my plan is to start with food treats and over time slowly phase them out and replace with games of tug or a quick play with a toy and petting.
I understand what you mean by socialising him, and thats my main concern as I want him out mixing with other pups and dogs as soon as he's able to off lead. I cant let him off lead in the park though at 3 months? I cant see training going that well lol. So thought socialising off lead in classes would be the best option at the very start?
Thanks for your replies, I'll have a look into APDT and comp OB instructors. Any other thought would be appreciated?
My plan is to achieve a high standard of obedience, would like to show him, and would also like to maybe introduce him to field trails as well after he's a year old.
Ok....Ermmm....Not meaning to sound patronising here, but I think you're perhaps aiming a bit too high and diverse, especially for a first dog. Put it this way, you would need a very different type of dog to Show than you would do to do Field Trials with and a lot of the training for one, say OB, may completely contradict the training for the other areas you are interested in.
I would suggest you think hard about what interests you most and get a dog suitable for that. So if you mostly want to Show, then find a good Show Breeder and get the pup along to Ringcraft Classes. If you want to do Field Trials, then seek out a breeder who does the same and find a good Gundog Class. If you want to do Comp OB you might be better off with a dog with at least some working blood in it, as they are bred for biddablility but also their movements tend to be lighter footed and more flowing, which suits OB. Just look at the types of dog which excel at OB. Very rarely are they heavy boned, heavy moving dogs .
Quote:
I cant let him off lead in the park though at 3 months?
Yes you can. There is no reason to keep him on lead once he's had his jabs and can go out. In fact the sooner you get him off lead and mixing, the better. Not only for his socialisation but also for you to practise that all important RECALL. Leaving this until he is full of confidence is asking for trouble. It's far easier to teach the Recall when they really WANT to be with YOU, than when they are confident enough to let you out of their sight. And it is usually the people who take this route who have the most trouble once they finally let their pup off lead.
Just remember, what is learnt in the home and even in the training school, will NOT apply once you are outside unless you practise it there too. Dogs are situational, so you must train in ALL environments for the dog to react correctly in ALL environments.
Quote:
So thought socialising off lead in classes would be the best option at the very start?
Not all classes and clubs do this. Many only do Training and the Socialisation is up to you.
My experience of high level obedience (competition obedience) trainers is not reward based training but very harsh yell and yank methods, though I appreciate that not all will work this way and I may just have been unlucky in the ones I have found.
If your dog is primarily a pet and any achievements in any direction would be a bonus then don't take it too seriously but if you have a burning desire to be the best you need to get it right to start with both with the type of dog and the training you do. Most training classes aimed at puppies are for the absolute novice and will involve luring your puppy to do the basic commands using food. As Jules said, the type of dog you choose and the type of training you start off with may determine what your dog can do in the future.
Young puppies think of you as their leader, provider, guider and friend, they will follow you easily until they develop some independence. The younger you start off lead the better. Always go to a safe place, away from roads and other dangers and preferably away from bad mannered dogs who may frighten your pup. By running away from a puppy and moving on to hiding behind trees etc you will develop a good recall and teach your pup to watch you and keep checking on your whereabouts from the beginning as long as you make it fun and give lots of praise but never get cross.
Ok....Ermmm....Not meaning to sound patronising here, but I think you're perhaps aiming a bit too high and diverse, especially for a first dog. Put it this way, you would need a very different type of dog to Show than you would do to do Field Trials with and a lot of the training for one, say OB, may completely contradict the training for the other areas you are interested in.
I would suggest you think hard about what interests you most and get a dog suitable for that. So if you mostly want to Show, then find a good Show Breeder and get the pup along to Ringcraft Classes. If you want to do Field Trials, then seek out a breeder who does the same and find a good Gundog Class. If you want to do Comp OB you might be better off with a dog with at least some working blood in it, as they are bred for biddablility but also their movements tend to be lighter footed and more flowing, which suits OB. Just look at the types of dog which excel at OB. Very rarely are they heavy boned, heavy moving dogs .
Thanks Jules, not patronising at all. This isn't my first dog, I have built great relationships with many dogs throughout my life so I'm not completely clueless on the way their minds work, and behaviours. This will be the first dog I'd be training seriously though and thats why I'm taking lots of care to do things correctly. Most of the battle is having a great relationship with the dog and having a clear consistent training programme that suits you and the dog, right?
I understand what you mean about contradicting breed lines, but my main intention, as well as being a brilliant pet and companion, is obedience and maybe trying my hand at showing him if all goes well. The Field training is just something I thought about to spend more time with him doing a different activity and good exercise, more fun than serious. I understand a working line dog will mostly be better at gundog tasks than the thicker set show lines. I still hope to incorporate natural retrieve behaviours, sit and drop early when playing tug though.
_Jules_ wrote:
Yes you can. There is no reason to keep him on lead once he's had his jabs and can go out. In fact the sooner you get him off lead and mixing, the better. Not only for his socialisation but also for you to practise that all important RECALL. Leaving this until he is full of confidence is asking for trouble. It's far easier to teach the Recall when they really WANT to be with YOU, than when they are confident enough to let you out of their sight. And it is usually the people who take this route who have the most trouble once they finally let their pup off lead.
Just remember, what is learnt in the home and even in the training school, will NOT apply once you are outside unless you practise it there too. Dogs are situational, so you must train in ALL environments for the dog to react correctly in ALL environments.
Yup, I understand this, but I don't see my local park as a safe environment to start off lead recalls. I can't trust other dogs for one, and can't risk the puppy doing a runner lol. As soon as the puppy is constantly achieving off lead recalls in my secure garden with other human distractions though that would be the next step. I want him to mix with other dogs from the off though, thats why I'm thinking about the classes.
Think I may introduce him to some other friendly dogs I know to get him some canine interaction if the classes are not suitable. Then get him into the park as soon as he's recalling consistently.
My experience of high level obedience (competition obedience) trainers is not reward based training but very harsh yell and yank methods, though I appreciate that not all will work this way and I may just have been unlucky in the ones I have found.
If your dog is primarily a pet and any achievements in any direction would be a bonus then don't take it too seriously but if you have a burning desire to be the best you need to get it right to start with both with the type of dog and the training you do. Most training classes aimed at puppies are for the absolute novice and will involve luring your puppy to do the basic commands using food. As Jules said, the type of dog you choose and the type of training you start off with may determine what your dog can do in the future.
Young puppies think of you as their leader, provider, guider and friend, they will follow you easily until they develop some independence. The younger you start off lead the better. Always go to a safe place, away from roads and other dangers and preferably away from bad mannered dogs who may frighten your pup. By running away from a puppy and moving on to hiding behind trees etc you will develop a good recall and teach your pup to watch you and keep checking on your whereabouts from the beginning as long as you make it fun and give lots of praise but never get cross.
Thanks Coco,
I may not have been clear but I do intend on teaching off lead recalls early, but as I said above the park where other dog interaction is best isn't ideal as I do not consider that a safe environment to start. I'll start in the garden and move to the park when ready but wanted him to get good dog interaction to start.
Hopefully he'll have recalls down enough by the time he's allowed out properly anyway so this won't be a problem, then he can go straight to the park.
By the sounds of it general puppy classes doesn't sound ideal anyway. I'd be interested in comp obedience classes but sounds like most trainers have a varied style.
Thank you both for the input
Btw, the pups parents come from show lines and have many obedience and show awards to their names, plus the sire is doing well in field events now.
I understand what you mean about contradicting breed lines, but my main intention, as well as being a brilliant pet and companion, is obedience and maybe trying my hand at showing him if all goes well. The Field training is just something I thought about to spend more time with him doing a different activity and good exercise, more fun than serious. I understand a working line dog will mostly be better at gundog tasks than the thicker set show lines. I still hope to incorporate natural retrieve behaviours, sit and drop early when playing tug though.
I read this post earlier this morning and didn't reply, but something you said above now makes me put finger to keyboard!
Whilst I agree with what Jules has said about having the right tools for the job in relation to getting a dog from working lines if you want to compete in field trials, I feel I should add that there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't undertake gundog training with your show-bred lab just for fun or to work towards competing in working tests.
A lot of people with show-bred dogs also train their dogs to the gun, some of us actually work our show dogs in the field during the shooting season , and some are really fortunate to show, work and compete in Gundog Working Tests and at Field Trials but these people are few and far between.
There are varying levels of gundog work from a really basic level to the really specialist - it's about finding the level for you and your individual dog.
I understand what you mean about contradicting breed lines, but my main intention, as well as being a brilliant pet and companion, is obedience and maybe trying my hand at showing him if all goes well. The Field training is just something I thought about to spend more time with him doing a different activity and good exercise, more fun than serious. I understand a working line dog will mostly be better at gundog tasks than the thicker set show lines. I still hope to incorporate natural retrieve behaviours, sit and drop early when playing tug though.
I read this post earlier this morning and didn't reply, but something you said above now makes me put finger to keyboard!
Whilst I agree with what Jules has said about having the right tools for the job in relation to getting a dog from working lines if you want to compete in field trials, I feel I should add that there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't undertake gundog training with your show-bred lab just for fun or to work towards competing in working tests.
A lot of people with show-bred dogs also train their dogs to the gun, some of us actually work our show dogs in the field during the shooting season , and some are really fortunate to show, work and compete in Gundog Working Tests and at Field Trials but these people are few and far between.
There are varying levels of gundog work from a really basic level to the really specialist - it's about finding the level for you and your individual dog.
Thanks Millerdan, that was the idea. I've not been interested in the sport in the past tbh but thought it would be a great activity for me and the dog to try and have fun doing. Not planning on taking it to seriously, unless the dog takes it seriously and does really well of course.
Last edited by Montie on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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