Interesting topic and one I'm glad is being discussed openly.... it often seems a bit taboo
I get confused with my dog sometimes, due to my inexperience and inability to read her.
I feel like I did socialise her in all manner of exciting situations when she was little. I did sit in the kiddies play park while my own sister's kids and all the other children ran round screaming like banshees (sorry, children aren't my thing ) I went to puppy parties and puppy training classes that were bedlam, and my wee lass joined in the fun, but didn't whine and bark. It was a long time before I even heard her bark. She whined a little to begin with when left while I went to the loo etc, but this didn't continue once she learned that I was coming back and that she got zero reward for any noise. I did lots of pavement walks, where I'd stop to speak to people, or stop to look in shop windows, and she was expected to sit calmly (which she did) until I was ready to move on. All the while I kept going to puppy classes (pet obedience) and all was well.
Then I went to gundog club grade 1. She was a nightmare and did occasionally whine - an adrenaline pumping, stressed out sort of whine. I'd read c/o LF, that the best thing to do was walk the dog away, distract etc. So that's what I did, and it helped.
I hadn't hear her make any noise at all during any gundog training stuff for ages and ages and ages, until the other month when I went to a training day. She did better than I've ever seen her do before, but as the day progressed she was making more and more noise. I was getting stressed and it wasn't always easy to walk away.... esp at side of water where there was only one path in and out and we were all sort of congregated in together. I went away that day delighted that my dog had done well, but worried that I now had a persistent whiner. So was interested to see how she'd be at the Charity Day. To the best of my knowledge she was quiet all day, even when watching others do water retrieves. Equally, when training with Sherry a couple of days later, she sat and watched Pasco and Sherry's dogs do cool stuff and was quiet all day.
At training yesterday, I don't think she made a noise either. It was the first time she'd seen a launcher and her first attempt on cold game. She was v excited by the rabbits, but despite bouncing around like a demented budgie, she remained quiet.
So.... after all that ramble.....
Why do they whine in exciting/stressy situations sometimes and not others? Is it to do with handler stress levels?
I think that's why its such a difficult subject to discuss Mo, because all dogs are different and you have to find what works for your dog. You need to watch her very closely and try to spot what triggers it off.
When you really know your dog you can sort of feel it building if that makes sense, and thats when your "glare command" comes in. You have a damn good glare at them and they think oh perhaps not!!!
Edited to add: If only dog training were black and white .
Agree completely Jill about the black and white thing. I have a bitch, I'm quite happy to admit, who can have a squeak, on a drive if something falls and runs but ONLY if I make eye contact - if she stays looking forward she doesn't bother 'talking to me', so making eye contact or glaring is the worst possible thing I can do with her... So just goes to show they are all different completely agree.
The reason for starting the thread, which Suz didn't mention but I will, as we all seem to be singing basically off the same hymn sheet anyway, is that, when Suz said she had been given some advice about stamping on this from other competitors yesterday, I wondered if it was the usual, good old traditional, give them hell/muzzle them with your hand and bellow/slap them under the chops, bash them on the head with something/spray them with water etc etc etc etc.... the same old same old advice thats been around forever. And I don't think she will mind me saying it WAS to the greater extent.
That was really why i was starting the topic. To discuss that. The fact nearly everyone seems to also hold the view that on THIS issue, fighting fire with fire be that the first or millionth time the dog has whined, is almost always useless, is wholely refreshing.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Ok I will keep my thoughts to myself next time. I only went on to say what I do with my dogs because Becs asked me to. It is your thread I will bow out gracefully.
No no no Jill, you misunderstand me. Thats not what I meant.... I meant that its lovely to hear everyone saying 'take the heat out the situation'. I wondered if reading so many people saying that would make readers think 'why did Di start it as everyone obviously deals with this in a positive and kind way'.... .... and you know Jill, they don't. We must just be a really positive thinking bunch on here. The usual advice, and the advice Suz got was far more physcial..... and I found it interesting, at the start that John said to maybe come down on it 'like a ton of bricks'... which for me, was exactly normal as that is the advice I almost always seem to hear....
(But as it was John didn't mean the 'Ton of Bricks' most mean when they say that regarding whining...)
Does that explain? Your posts have been facinating! I must have worded something badly for you to take offense. I was agreeing with you completely in the first paragraph about dogs all being different.
Di
Last edited by Diana on Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Actually, and without this turning in a Jill/Di 'love in' You've given me something further to think about. I've always been very very cautious about exposing youngsters to exciting situations, easing them into them really slowly, often being quite pathetic about it!
But infact overload might WELL be another way of looking at this, with, as you explianed, 'overload' being controlled and you reading your pups to a tee to make sure they only take positives from it....
That is certainly something to think about.
Maybe because I've always worked showdogs up to now, and their terrible reputation for whining, its always been an issue close to my heart.
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Well you've worried me slightly now Di, because this may be a tad dangerous advice to give new people.
I will add a health warning : You must be very careful when doing this and beware of how your dog is behaving. If it starts to boil over go home and have a cup of tea/or glass of wine instead
How many people out there take there young dogs/pups to Gundog Training Classes and just sit and watch though? It is something you can do before they are old enough to actually join in the classes. I am usually the only one doing it!!!
I have to say, the thing that worried me the most yesterday, was hearing that it is mostly incurable! and that once he is a whiner, he will probably stay one, unless I snap him out of it immediately.
The advice I was given was helpful, some old school, and some more refreshing along the same lines as Di. Take him away, be unsocialble and remove yourself from waiting close by etc.
Chester in particular as some of you will know, is a complete wuss, very soft, and all it takes is my voice, and he is wobbling!
One thing I was going to try, (until I 'conversed' with Di last night) was to try shocking him out of it with a cap on the top of his head, NOT TO HURT, but to shock him out of that state of mind. Which made sense to me, BUT, after hearing Di's version, of understanding of WHY they do it, I am completely 100% in agreement with her, and adding more 'heat' to the situation, will only make it worse.
Some of the advice reminded me of when I was breaking in my first horse, and I used to crack eggs on the top of his forlock everytime he used to rear up! and er, that never really worked! but I was 14 at the time, and used to listen to all the experts!
Suzy, went away and though of this some more and reading your last post re tapping head reminded me of another method.
Putting a hand over the muzzle is really successful too. It apparently stems from something primitive where mums would have held their own muzzle gently on top of a whining pup in a danger situation.
Anyway there's no cupping, clasping or firmness you just gently rest the palm of your hand over the top of their nose - imagine resting your hand on a block of butter and if you would make a dent then you're being too firm. The effect is almost instant so you dont hold you hand there.
This won't curb the root of the issue, excitement, but it will deal with it if you're in a situation where walking away or distraction commands can't be used easily.
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) I went to puppy parties and puppy training classes that were bedlam, and my wee lass joined in the fun, but didn't whine and bark. It was a long time before I even heard her bark. She whined a little to begin with when left while I went to the loo etc, but this didn't continue once she learned that I was coming back and that she got zero reward for any noise. I did lots of pavement walks, where I'd stop to speak to people, or stop to look in shop windows, and she was expected to sit calmly (which she did) until I was ready to move on. All the while I kept going to puppy classes (pet obedience) and all was well.
