Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Whining
Sorry, in a other thread I wrote the below (which I've nowe removed, because I didn't want to hijack that thread when it was a brilliant result from Suz! It was rude to start this up (or probably finish it dead actually... grin) there - so starting a new thread for my random wafflings...
John wrote on that thread (sorry to pick on your John its just a useful quote!)
" Not sure what to say about the noise thing - see what your trainer has to say, but as a plan B, I would be assembling a metaphoric ton of bricks, just in case it happens again and possibly set-up those circumstances? Just a thought. "
John,
I seem to have run into the only trainers in the world through the years, who have given me a clear understanding about whining and that you can 'ton of bricks' it, increasing the stress and adrenaline level in a dog already, patently at his adrenaline management ceiling, or you can try and reduce the adrenaline level by making nothing of it and realising you need a whole lot more experience in certain situations with that dog to reduce the tension level. taking the heat OUT rather than piling the heat ON. After all its an involentary reaction and a dog gains nothing from whining, unlike running in or something like that so I don't believe dogs 'choose' to do it... myself. Therefore can they 'choose' not too through fear of a whack or a spray etc etc? I'm not sure they can myself.
Sounds fluffy I know. But then most whiners get sold on as you know, which is a inditement as to how 'incureable' most find it.... and I wonder if that is because they fight it with fire, rather than taking the heat out of the kitchen.
Random musings, but I find it a really interesting area of 'traditional training' to whack (or whatever, give some negative punishment of some form) a dog for whining. Its such a widespread way of dealing with it, and so few people ever really cure it, I wonder if its a time for a bit of a different approach to it? Anyway.... whatever Di, I know!
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Well I guess some might have noticed (because I bang on a bit about it ) that I think a lot of the problem comes from upbringing. I am talking about folk with a pup who start thinking I'd like to do a bit of gundog work with this. Rather than someone who specifically buys in a pup to work.
I feel that crates, child gates etc. are encouraging whining, and because the owners are newcomers they don't even realise that it is a problem until it has escalated and become very difficult to cure.
I well remember Boots arriving here and standing the other side of the baby gate and screaming the house down. I honestly had never heard a noise like it . He was eight weeks old and so easy to distract and the problem was solved within a week. He is a fantastic quiet little chap now. But I was fully aware of the danger of what was happening and sorted it straight away. I can assure you nothing physical was involved at all.
I maintain that you can solve an awful lot by taking your young dogs along to all sorts of exciting situations right from the very start and getting them to just sit or lie quietly at your side while all is mad and chaotic around them. If you do that from a young age, attending a test will not be as exciting. An awful lot of people seem to back away from situations rather than saturating if that makes sense. This is why all my young pups and dogs go out on the shoot with me (there is nothing quite so exciting as that) and learn that it is just another day out.
But you need ears that pick up on the slightest little noise (some people seem totally unaware that there dog has actually made a noise ).
Sorry I've rambled on a bit .
Edited to add: I think saturation of exciting activities and distraction at the very start is the key!
I agree Di, that it is involuntary. A tense dog is tense in his throat as well as the rest of his body (if you think about when you get tense, quite often you can feel it in your throat, or at the very least the clenched teeth ).
The rapid slightly more forced than usual breathing, combined with the tense throat produced the whine.
Rosie whines in the car on the way to hydrotherapy, I ignore it largely, although there have been occasions when I can see her and she gets herself into a sort of 'zone' and by just saying her name, I snap her out of it and she stops! She looks all surprised and sort returns from planet Rosie
Strangely enough, she doesn't do it when we are doing a bit of work with retrieving and steadiness. She sits like a little rock.
I'm not sure that a dog punished for whining would know what he was being punished for, leading to increased stress and anxiety, waiting for the next 'unprovoked' attack from their owner.
Those are my feelings, I have of course, never had to train a dog to work in the field, and so have no idea what I would do if it was a problem, as Jill said, a thorough education from an early age is ideal.
Jill - would you mind going into a bit more detail please, as I'm interested in what you are saying, and can see the logic to it, and am wondering if you think there is a difference in types of whining, for instance, excitement, frustration, boredom, anxiety etc, and if you react differently to each type?
Zorro 'hums' when anxious, and I find the thing that mostly works is to tell him to down and settle, as that has always been his cue to switch-off.
Mouse whines if bored, and what I'm doing at the moment is walking her around, scattering some tiny bits of kibble in the long grass and letting her sniff about for them, or playing 'touch' with her with my hand, but I'm wondering if this mightn't be rewarding her whinging?
And how would you go about saturating a dog to shoots and working tests etc, if you aren't in those circles but may want to be one day?
and am wondering if you think there is a difference in types of whining,
Oh I'm 100% convinced of that! My Amy is one of the world's great conversations, as was her dad Dusk. She has the most descriptive language of any dog I've ever had! But she is also totally quiet when working, again as was her dad. She just likes to talk to you! But the thing is, it's not an involuntary squeak, she knows and intends to do it because she wants to converse.
I agree with Di, that maybe the softer approach is better. Barney does a random 'gruff' when sent on 1 in every 200 or so retrieves. It really is random. I ignore it. My take is that if i chastised him for it/or recognised it in some way it would happen far more regularly. As it is I have been very lucky for it not to happen in Tests (touch wood). When it does happen, and I can probaby count the number of times on one hand, it's usually when we are doing something 'new' and 'exciting'. Such as the very first time he went to gundog training or the very first shoot day he went on, or even the very first retrieve to a dummy launcher, or having to wait his turn for a retrieve for a long time with strange dogs etc etc. So new things trigger it off. Thus the more we do of them the better. Just as Di says in fact, for us it's getting more experience in scenarios that get the adrenaline going, which is key.
Becs, I tried the playing touch and feeding trick with Pasco and really it was delaying the squeak coming back.
I agree with Jill, get them exsposed to everything as pups. That was the one thing that Pasco missed being stuck in a crate from age 15 weeks to 5 and a half months
____________
All images posted by me on this or any other website remain copyright to me with all rights reserved
Oh I'm 100% convinced of that! My Amy is one of the world's great conversations, as was her dad Dusk. She has the most descriptive language of any dog I've ever had! But she is also totally quiet when working, again as was her dad. She just likes to talk to you! But the thing is, it's not an involuntary squeak, she knows and intends to do it because she wants to converse.
Luna is like John's Amy, she will use whining, growling, barking occasionally to talk to you. When she thinks you're forgetting she's there when you eat! When she really needs a wee (7am in morning usually!) or as yesterday when bottom is about to be squitty!!!
She will also though seem to do an involuntary whine after half an hour or so when sitting and supposedly relaxing while lots goes on around her. Usually when she's tired though. It's almost like she's saying I either need to go to sleep or go and hooly around! This middle ground is too much hard work now!
Brooke will whine if she watches dummies being thrown around and others retrieving them, but she is easily distracted with a little training so I move her back a few steps and do a little watching, sits, downs etc for a reward and she forgets the other dogs. However she is absolutely silent at home.
Jenson chats and talks at home, yet he is silent when watching other dogs retrieving, he doesn't really show any interest in what they are doing. I really quite enjoy our conversations we have at home
____________ I am only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand !
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
) that I think a lot of the problem comes from upbringing. I am talking about folk with a pup who start thinking I'd like to do a bit of gundog work with this. Rather than someone who specifically buys in a pup to work.
).
