Burn out, as we spoke about yesterday becs, could be interpretted a number of ways, but generally just means 'going off the boil' or 'not working or training with the drive they did have'.... or maybe 'seems bloody darn bored with it all'....
Of course you can factor in things such as hormones, negative experiences, poorly thought through training exercises, illness etc etc, but the 'burn out' I think really being spoken of here tends to be the young dog, not usually as young as Mouse of course, but one of competition age, who is a child genuis, and flies up the ranks, maybe winning a couple of tests at a very young age in quick succession pushing them up the ranks into Open very young.... and the handler having to seriously start training at qute a high level and starting to push the youngster much harder than ideally they would have possibly.... and the dog packing it in and going backwards. Sometimes never to recover their previous 'edge' and 'enjoyment' and 'rate of learning progression'.
Before my mobile packed it in yesterday, what i was going to say, was that you walk a slightly grey area as you know, with a 5 month old hunting, doing blinds and going to gundog classes with adult dogs etc etc. 'Burn out' or anything akin to it may NOT tarnish the future for you and I sincerely of course hope it doesn't....but its suggested out of caution I think.
Sorry i digress, what i was going to say before the flatline hit, was that of course training, being progressive, the nature of which if a pup is up to a fairly high standard, or doing quite 'advanced puppy stuff' at a really young age, then they may hit a ceiling where you have to keep moving forward of course, but the dog is just simply not ready to. Thats when they APPEAR to move forward but you find them inconsistant, stressed, going backwards even.... with some sorts becoming sluggish. With other sorts blanking you at times they used to listen and charging around hooli'ing.
So just that one reaso folks tend to take it fairly slowly with a puppy, not starting anything remotely serious till a good few months are under their belt other than basic manners, is to know you can freely progress without worrying about the fact that you need to move onto something the dog mentally just cannot be ready for....
But i know this may not seem likely to you because I know you will read Mouse as well as you can and not over-push....
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Read your post (and others) with great interest. As a long time pet owner I find myself in a completely new place with Petroc and his training - working towards rough shooting companion and picker-up. Starting to get a tune out of him, without any lures or treats, on the working front is so utterly compulsive!
I suspect I may be taking things more slowly than you are with Mouse, largely because of time pressures and competing priorities: turns out there's only 24 hours in a day and work (the salaried variety) will keep intruding on my dog, riding and small holding endeavours! At nine months I have good heel work well established, good steadiness (stays with dummies whizzing back and forth over him), but only done very basic retrieves. But I am increasingly starting to wonder if I can combine having him as a pet dog alongside Moo and Pip and his potential working role - more because of my mindset than necessarily his.
Being a great one for compartmentalising I have little problem with treating him differently and don't see it as being worse than how I treat the other two. In many respects he gets a lot more of my undivided attention, but he doesn't get the easy run of the house that the others have or cuddles on the sofa of any evening. Have even found myself browsing kennels on the internet.
Thank-you, that's interesting. Mouse's classes have now finished until Spring, so apart from a few club evenings left this summer (summer- ha!) that's her training over for this year.
As I type, Mouse is whacking the older dogs over the head with the plastic watering-can that she has been trying to sneak past me into the house all morning (and has now succeeded in doing), so all pretty normal for an average pup I think. A little 'burn-out' and sitting quietly in the corner lacking interest in the world sounds rather attractive!
Sorry been really hectic lately and only just caught up with this.
When I read your first post I instantly thought of a lesson I had with Fife about 8 years ago. It was with Diana Harrison, who is a local Field Trial lady. I took Fife, aged about 2, to her training sessions. He ran in about 15 times in one evening, and lifted his leg to wee on his return with the dummies. I was really upset as Fife was potentially an excellent dog and I was ruining him by not being able to train him, and I remember Diana was so kind to me. She said – if I wanted a top competition dog I must not let him have free running. I must keep him to heel, and only let him run free to empty himself, then back to heel at all times. No games, no silliness. I thought about why I have dogs, and what I enjoy with them. My dogs are my best friends, my constant companions. I love to go for long walks and see them running about playing with each other and enjoying themselves. I love to play silly games with them, I adore agility. I love picking up with them, but it doesn’t matter a hoot if they are on the lead during the drive, and have the lead slipped off when they spot a runner. If they lift their leg on the way back to me with a bird, is it really a life or death situation? I think not! So, I changed my perspective with Fife all those years ago. We still did some working tests, and he either did really well, or ran in and blew it. He had a fantastic agility career, and is still picking up now at 10 years old. We enjoy life together, and the pleasure that dog has given me is beyond comparison.
Ash came next, and oh, I so know what you mean about the body language! This year after a back injury Ash lost confidence and would “go flat” very quickly at agility. I would “sink” inside, my shoulders would droop in disappointment that he wasn’t happy, and Ash would get slower and slower. I so was close to giving up agility with him, thinking he just didn’t enjoy it so it was unfair to ask him do it. Then I thought “I will give him till the end of the season, what the hell, what does it matter if he misses a weave / does the wrong course / does the tunnel twice” – I just wanted to see Ash’s tail wagging. I relaxed, my body said “hey Ash, you just have a great time, it doesn’t matter what you do, just enjoy yourself” and I have now had a couple of months of training once a fortnight and doing silly stuff at home, doing local fun shows – we have had loads of eliminations for going the wrong way but I now have the happy, keen, jolly dog that I know and love back again! He will have the winter off agility to go picking up twice a week, and hopefully when he starts agility again next February the keenness will remain. I put too much pressure on him – when I relaxed the pressure, he enjoyed it again.
Di says about putting too much pressure on young dogs – I am constantly forcing myself to back off with 15 month old Oak. He is the child star, and I confess I am competitive with him, and I am stricter with him that the others, but he is certainly having a childhood. I only train once or twice a week, we play in the park, yes, with balls!!!! Shock, Horror! We do silly stunts – circle left, circle right, run backwards for treats! And then when we do go out gundog training, he is as keen as mustard! Yes, I have things to work on, but especially at the moment when he is really going through the teenage stage, I think ringing the changes and keeping him guessing as to what today’s fun outing will be is really important.
Becs, you are a good trainer. You won’t muck up Mouse, as long as you remember why you got her – for company, for pleasure, and to have fun with her! Just enjoy her! And any time you are in Sussex, come over for a wild walky and real hooly about with my working gundogs!!
She said – if I wanted a top competition dog I must not let him have free running. I must keep him to heel, and only let him run free to empty himself, then back to heel at all times. No games, no silliness
Thanks so much for your post Katy. It's helped me see things a bit differently, as the sort of life-style that your trainer recommended would absolutely not be possible for me or my dogs. My dogs are 'Town-dogs'. They HAVE to be able to cope with free-running walks in the local park Monday- Friday where they meet, mingle and play and hoolie with all the other dogs we meet up with. I really believe that, if I walked Mouse round at heel and didn't let her socialise in the kind of environment I live in, I'd have huge problems later on. At the moment I'm hunting out kids and getting them to feed Mouse sausages (so not Khaki!) as she is quite a timid pup and is worried by kids and whilst this may not be a problem if I lived out in the country, Mouse was kennelled and her social life was all-khaki-stuff, it's going to be a heck of a problem for me and my lifestyle if I don't sort it.
My morning walks are with all my dogs. I don;t have time before work to walk them separately. My JRT adores chasing balls and her walk would be ruined if I wasn't throwing her ball for her. Mouse's favourite game is mugging Flo and nicking her ball - very naughty! So my options are to not walk Mouse in the mornings, which would mean that she'd miss out on the socialising (and fun), not to throw the ball for Flo (which means that most of the pleasure Flo gets from the walk would be lost), not let Mouse run after the ball or mug Flo (which would be incredibly frustration for all concerned) or let her play with Flo and the ball and try and make training a different 'game' for her and hope she learns the difference. I'm going for the last option and if it ruins her for Khaki-stuff in the future, then it's just bad luck.
It's nice to hear that your dogs Kate, seem to be able to do the Gundoggery-bit as well as enjoying other aspects of Dogdom!
Becs
PS- I would be very up for a 'wild walky and real hooly about' with your working gundogs if I'm ever down your way. Mouse does a good 'Wild and Hooley'!!
I think I'm becoming an increasingly watered-down, wannabe Khaki Girl!
Becs - when I play ball in the park I have a completely different cue to the dogs - I say in a high pitch excited voice "ready, ready, READY, READY??????! GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and throw the ball(s). All dash off, and , depending how many balls I throw, some or all get a ball. The only thing I insist on is that Oak doesn't take the ball from anyone else, which is why it helped in the early days having two or three balls being thrown. Also when Oak gets the ball he HAS to come straight back to me and give it to me nicely. No exceptions. Sometimes I make Oak sit and throw balls out for the other boys. Sometime I throw one ball, everyone sits, and one dog is sent on his name, then as he returns, another is thrown out, which another dog gets, etc etc. So "Ready ready ready GO" means all dive in, "Oak sit" means he has to wait his turn. Oak is the fastest so he always gets the ball first, hence the other balls being thrown so that the others get a turn too. The only thing I have to watch is that Oak doesn't try and scoop up two balls at the same time - I have to be quick on the whistle sometimes!
I think in your situation, (which I totally understand and I would do just the same as you do!), I would have a second ball / toy. Throw Flo's ball, and when she has it throw another for Mouse. Try to discourage Mouse from nicking Flo's where possible. It probably wont have any long term damage as she will realise dummies are different to the ball games in the morning, so don't lose any sleep if you can't manage it, but I never encourage any dog to take from another in case they do it one day to the wrong dog and get told off. Playing tuggy is a totally different subject of course! (What, gundogs playing tuggy?!! Surely not!!! Oh dear oh dear!!!)
Labradors are versatile mutli skilled dogs! They can cope with khaki, agility, office work, neices and nephews, camping, bicycles - they can cope with anything! And totally enjoy the whole process! They may never have letters before or after their names (Ft Ch), but hey, I have no letters after my name, and I am very happy, so why shouldn't they be?
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