Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: Removing 'Stay' or 'Wait'....
Ok I want to be brief but can't of course... it wouldn't be me I need a bit of explanation please...
Ok I used to look at those using and advising removing the words 'stay' or 'wait' from a dogs vocab as a bit ambitious. I couldn't see the benefit. The explanation that instead of 'stay' or 'wait', you use 'sit' when you put them into it or 'down' and thats that.... they don't move till told otherwise.
Fast forward a lot of time and I now, truly understand the benfit and entirely wish to start my youngsters in this way. As quickly as I can the reason being I have been causing myself extra grief on a drive in a trial because I don't have the ability to use the word I would out picking up when I feel the dog might 'go'... which is, of course, 'wait' (I don't use 'Stay', anything that means...'stay there' is 'wait'...)
SO I've been getting myself in a terrible tizz in a drive at a trial because my dogs over the years have not been used to NOT having an extra 'wait' thrown in there when something falls and runs. SO therefore, one day we are picking up and I'm throwing 'waits' in, and then come the next day at a trial I have to stay completely silent regardless of what falls and of course I'm terrified its going to 'go' and the dog is probably right in assuming that if it doesn't hear 'wait' then it probably CAN go because thats what usually is the little blocker between sitting and running in....
So the fact the two girls have been steady on many drives at all is a credit to them in trials because that is patently in SPITE of my training rather than because of it
SO I want now to start my pups with the idea that you say 'sit'.... and then you are quiet from then on until you want them to move with a 'heel' or a release command. And of course, if they then BREAK that sit, you can correct them back into it... but you don't keep using a 'hold them there' command....
I feel this will help a lot on a trial drive.
BUT my question now I've explianed what I WANT to do, is.....
My dogs, say are standing by the garden gate (lets just say) in a crowd... I want to go OUT the garden gate. Previously, even if they were standing up, I'd just say 'wait' and go through. But course now thats gone... if I don't teach 'wait'... or if I want one to jump in the car and not the others.... I'd say 'Mallie Wait'.... 'Jade over'.... or whatever.... but now I don't have 'wait'...
...For anyone who DOESN'T use stay or wait ever.... how do you teach your dogs to be static when they are NOT in a sit...? I want to plough on with this but am finding that a bit of a head scratcher....
Thanks
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Oddly enough Di when I go through a gate and want all mine to stay where they are I use Go Back (don't ask me why but it works ) they take a few paces back from the gate so I can get through easily. I then call through by name whichever dog I actually want.
Not sure if that helps or not. Oh the joys of training multiple dogs and changing commands half way through .
Edited to add I do use Stay (never wait) but I do not use it in a walk up or drive situation. When I stand still I expect my dogs to sit next to me without any command until I tell them different.
Di I have been trying out using only 'sit' for this same reason, having used 'wait' previously.
Kaya is picking up that it means 'and don't move til I say so' and does it quite well in the house. I am extending to other situations. I do it by correcting her when she moves. Of course, I don't want to make her sticky...
All I can say is when they are all in the way we tell them to Go Back. From pups they are taught to Sit if we are standing still, Richard uses hup to sit but they all sit on either command. As they have got older they just Sit beside us if we are standing still ie Looking over the gate at the scenery or talking to people.
Edited to add. If they should start to wriggle after a while he just puts up the flat of his hand, or even give a little cough They know, they aren't stupid. But being female Richard says they will try it on
Last edited by Fred on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
I am the same as Wellsummer - if I am opening a gate, or opening the boot of the 4x4, and I don't want all the dogs jumping in, I give the "sit" hand signal, and they sit.
Then I call whoever I want through the gate or into the boot etc...
I think you are over-complicating things. You’re worried to death that your dog is going to move during a trial drive because you can’t slip an extra command in during the ‘hot’ moments. Welcome to the club, it’s quite a large one!
I really can’t see that it matters what word you use at the start of the drive, you just need to get used to only speaking when necessary during a drive on a normal shoot day. The dogs are taught to only go for a retrieve when sent, and if your dogs have sat through heavy trial drives then they know perfectly well what’s expected. I actually doubt that the last command they are given as the lead comes off at a trial makes any difference at all, they’re either going to sit still or not, based on all their previous training and experience.
Essentially I would just try and stop slipping in extra commands as a ‘crutch’ during drives and deal with any misdemeanours as and when the dog might start thinking about it. And also get yourself some picking up on a bigger shoot.
If you sit your dog up for a drive with the command 'sit up' and then give a command 'wait' you are actually giving them a useless command as they have already been told to sit.
I myself use the command stay in different situations. When I open the kennel they have to stay until I call them out so to start off with I use the command stay until they grasp the idea. When I open the garden gate I don't want them to storm out so I use the command stay (until they grasp the idea and then call them out one by one by name.
When I open the bench in the car I use the command stay and call them out by name one by one.
The command stay means: stay in the area you are in now, it doesn't matter whether you stand, sit, have a snooze, sniff the other dogs bottom,...
The command sit means: sit down until told otherwise and don't do anything else.
Using both together is useless unless you want them to perform another action then they are already doing. F.e. If you previously used the word stay when you open the garden gate and all of a sudden somebody walks through that gate you can use the command sit to get them to sit down, otherwise they could jump up at the visitor as they are still obliging the command stay. If you understand what I'm trying to say.
" I think you are over-complicating things. You’re worried to death that your dog is going to move during a trial drive because you can’t slip an extra command in during the ‘hot’ moments. Welcome to the club, it’s quite a large one! "
Goodness thanks guys... laughing at Sarahs answer and also realising to a certain extent I don't think I made myself quite clear in my haste typing the first post... BUT Matt, I have to say everything you say is EXACTLY it... you read me so well.... I use 'wait' as a crutch...a nervous twitch....when something happens that particularly taxes the dog, and funnily enough where I am more relaxed picking up, than at a trial, I find I probably don't use it half as much as I'd like to when under the competitive situation that I CAN'T use it or get put out!
Depending on the level of the dog depends how much I use it. For the youngsters past at puppy level it might be if in a walk up a dog gets sent with huge gusto and I have a little panic... Fast forward to the open dogs and it would only be on game and if something falls and runs nearby, or crashes down really close then flaps and twitches and flips... But never the less because I freely teach and USE a 'stay/wait' command its there on the tip of my tongue when it shouldn't be.
Dave you are quite right, it IS useless to say 'sit' and then 'stay' (or wait or whatever one uses as a static command) and its taken me a long time to realise that (about 15 years!). Its just re-enforcing the same command and creating command 'overload'! You put it very well dave. Thank you too...
Fred, the thing is in a trial, unless you are ULTRA sneeky you can't even put your hand up whilst a drive is on. Of course in reality you can take a glance at a judge, see they are looking elsewhere and do it, but that might be too late and the dogs gone but you probably know that already...
Sarah and Matt are dead right too, I probably AM overcomplicating things as its something new to me, 'wait' has always had a place in my training till now.... PS Life is going smoothly right now, why would I not give myself something to worry about that I didn't have before....
Matt, yes, part of it IS because trial drives are so much heavier in the main, than on my own shoots. It makes one start to panic and quake and the stress and temptation level is so much higher for the dog than just a handful coming down in a drive. But I just wondered if removing the 'stay' command might help this idea from day one. The idea that they sit till told differently without any renforcing static commands being used in their vocab.... But to be honest I see completely, utterly completely, if I used 'bananas!' as a last command word, if the dog is going to go, its going to go...
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
It was like, when we were showing my cob, everyone would be under tenterhooks that Ben wouldn't Buck in front of the judge when they asked the group to caaannnttteerrrr. Ben always knew to do it when he passed behind the Judge and would be absolute spot on when passing the judge in front.
As I said Richard sometimes just gives a little cough as if to say you dare and that can be enough. Sorry not much help am I.
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I need a bit of explanation please...
) they take a few paces back from the gate so I can get through easily. I then call through by name whichever dog I actually want.
They know, they aren't stupid. But being female Richard says they will try it on 
