Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: More positive post on Gundog Tests in the East
After a great deal of thought I have decided not to back away from this subject but, on the contrary, to knuckle down and see what can be done to improve things.
As I am sure from the number of people viewing a fairly recent post of mine on here there has been some controversy about the standard expected in Puppy Tests in the East of England (not all clubs but some) and the lack of encouragement for new gundog handlers to enter into the sport ie. no NDNH classes at all.
I moved up to this area six years ago and have been surprised at the difference in the standard of the tests up here compared to the ones down south. I am not new to the sport nor to picking up which I have been involved with for the last 14 years initially with HPR's and for the past 9 years with labradors.
Judging from the pm's I have received the majority of newbies in this area who read the forum have now, because of the recent post, been put off completely from getting involved in certain clubs which I actually consider to be a very sad state of affairs indeed.
I have always tried my best to encourage new people into doing gundog work with there dogs, and indeed have helped a few with there initial training until they were of a standard that they would be accepted at Gundog Club Training Classes who do not always have a beginner class and really expect dogs to be of a Novice standard before attending classes. Another very sad state of affairs that is not the case down south.
I do think that there needs to be some sort of standardisation of Working Tests so as people (especially new people) know what to expect when they enter one of these tests. I can feel a letter to the Kennel Club being composed on that subject, but my main worry and one expressed by pm and people new to the sport that have my pups is how an earth are they to get started in competition given the attitude of some of the Gundog Clubs.
So perhaps all the people who are viewing said topic could come up with some positive ways to encourage entries in tests and help the newbies get involved in what can sometimes be viewed as a closed shop.
How about, if you want to keep Puppy Tests as tough as possible, you introduce some Novice Dog Novice Handler Classes? Please look around at the age of some of the competitors in your tests and just give a thought to how little new blood is coming into the sport!
Thank you for your post, as a NEWBIE its very encouraging knowing that there is someone batting for the NDNH side. I have often wondered how on earth im going to get started and "get the first foot over the door." I have been to watch two tests now just to get the experience, and have left on both occasions thinking "oh dear." Fab to watch but left me feeling that I will never meet the grade.
More NDNH classes would certainly build confidence without the pressure of a taxing puppy test. IMO its more important for newbie handlers and dog to enjoy their day in the beginning, leaving us to "want more" and have the enthusisam to continue training with a goal in mind.
OMG better not read my report then, as people might just start to move away!!
This whole thing was indeed the reason behind me starting the topic of 'what does your club do for newbies'. Getting new blood into our sport is not only a problem here in the East but indeed a national one. We are in a situation now where most new potential recruits are from non shooting, non countryside background so they will have no 'connections' to anyone in the sport. Yesterday, there were 3!! yes, 3 young handlers running which I find extremely depressing - wouldn't it have been a bit more encouraging to have had 10 there?
But maybe, I've got it wrong? maybe this is indeed a sport where you need to show your bus pass at the door in order to be let in? In other walks of life you will find junior classes both at training but also when competing. Would that be an idea? having young handlers classes at dog training? and NDNH classes as well? It's just that at the moment we've got a situation were the people doing the classes already know how to train a dog so they're coming along mainly to train at different ground and not because they're in desperate need of help.
Natasha
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WLF All the Way!!!!
"Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can´t eat it or hump it. **** on it and walk away..."
Jill, I make use of clubs training days with young dogs. It is a great opportunity to introduce our youngsters to training in company for the first time. We have in the past and will in the future, use puppy classes and progress to an upper class before going back on our own. I’m a member of only 2 clubs and have found the attitude at both of them, towards newcomers, very open indeed and I’ve seen people being welcomed who clearly are totally new to the whole thing. Inexperienced handlers who want to go further are mentored and encouraged into their first competitions by the instructors.
Training is the only experience I have of clubs activities, but reading some of the posts on here, it would seem that the working tests are often taken very seriously with even the experienced handlers suffering from extreme nerves and dreading beforehand. I’ve always found this a bit puzzling, isn’t it meant to be fun?
Clearly the novice handler competition is the way to go, where it is not taken too seriously and people who think themselves unworthy or just would like to have a go and see if they get a kick out of it or not, could pitch up, just like a game fair scurry. Competitions of this type, held in the type of scenery described in your other post, would be a great encouragement to those starting out and would give them the opportunity of being part of the day and seeing the experienced handlers at work, without having to go up against them and cramp their style. If I were a club secretary I would see this as the most import part of what I did, bring in new blood!
Slightly of topic, one thing that I did not quite understand in your Norfolk report was the objection to gunfire in the puppy test. I can see how it would be inappropriate for the true novice and their dog, not having been to a test before, who may be hearing it for the first time, but my pups are introduced to it at a very early stage, way before formal training begins.
Having not logged on over the weekend I have found a number of interesting posts to read today. I do not have time to answer all now, but this one invites comments, so here, for what they are worth, are my thoughts!
I am now training my 4th Labrador. My 1st, Tarka, competed in NDNH, which gave us confidence, and later in Novice. My 2nd, Fife, was a puppy during the Foot and Mouth period so the timing was not right to enter for him for Puppy tests. Ash was a late developer, so wasn’t ready for Puppy tests, and Oak is my current Puppy, aged 13 months.
Oak and I regularly attend club training sessions, run by a variety of clubs. We started in Puppy class, and now have progressed to Novice classes in all these sessions. Generally we hold our own with the other dogs in the class, although I have not pushed ahead with jumping due to Oak’s age.
When I enter Puppy tests with Oak I hope that they will be along the lines of the “lower novice” standard that I am working at in the club’s training classes, where the majority of dogs are around 18 – 24 months of age. I want to encourage my young dog to succeed. If the test sets something which we are not strong on, I would hope that the judge would understand if I said “please scrap the marks and let me help my puppy”. Here in the South every test I have entered has been exactly like that. Helpful, friendly and encouraging.
When we have young dogs it is to be expected that they will not be experts in every field. As handlers we can only judge how well our dog is doing in training as to whether he is ready for a test. Personally I judged Oak against the other dogs in the training class, and once he was confident there, I entered a test. I fully expected that there maybe something we hadn’t come across yet, and hoped that if that was the case the exercise could be a learning process. (For example, at the recent SEGS funday there was a mark over a medium height wooden jump – Oak had not jumped like that before so I ran forward, patted the top of the jump, and over he went. We scored a zero, but in my mind we achieved 100% because it taught Oak something new, and he succeeded. I was delighted).
So, IMHO, a Puppy test should be achievable, encouraging, and, if jumping is involved, only over a VERY LOW jump. After all these are young dogs. Allow enough time for the top few dogs to have a run off for places if needed at the end of the day. That’s my feeling, for what it is worth!
Ah but John you see you live in my home territory so you have experienced some very good clubs at welcoming newbies and helping as much as possible, that is certainly what I am used too. Sadly it would appear it is not the same throughout the whole country.
On the subject of shotguns being used it was not an objection more a surprise as I haven't encountered them in a Puppy Test before. Pepper has heard gunshot in the distance because I make a point of taking my pups along to the shoot to socialise and go round with me (staying in the vehicle) when I pick up. He will not actually go out with the guns until this coming season.
It was not a problem at the test. It purely made him jump when the shot was fired as we had not trained with them being that close. All the puppy tests that I have been to since have either just made a noise as the dummies were thrown or a starting pistol has been used. I think it was actually others that expressed there concern about shotguns being used.
From your post I guess you introduce shotguns in close proximity more quickly than I do. I have until know not considered it necessary for a Puppy Test but maybe I will have to review that in the future.
Not sure which post to add this too – re encouraging new people – recently SEGS held a training day aimed at people entering tests. I couldn’t go on that day, but I would imagine it is just the sort of thing you are talking about.
For brand new people, I think it needs to be fun and educational at the same time – a bit like the day many of us on LF are going to in August to raise funds for Rescue, which sounds marvellous. Also scurries and fun days which we are lucky to have a few of around here are great for encouragement. You see a number of youngsters handling dogs at these days, which is great.
I came from a horsey background, and still have never handled a gun – I train and pick up purely for the joy of working my dogs. I was lucky enough to get into gundogs through a recommendation, and the more we can encourage people through demo’s at fairs, with “have a go!” tests, the better, I think.
I don't think there are many NDNH tests up in Scotland either. When I started to find out about what's required in training and tests, I quickly discovered that my pup would be too old to enter in puppy tests by the time I got her and I up to any sort of standard. There's no way I could parachute in at the next level up EEK , we'd be a laughing stock and I wouldn't put me or the dog through that. Back to drawing board: plan B, get another pup maybe next year or so, and work out the timing to coincide with being of an age and ready to participate in puppy tests. No doubt finding a puppy that suited my requirements but also fitted in with the timeframes, would've been difficult. Also not ideal, since many (if not most) puppies are being handled by people who are anything but novices.
So Jill, you have my full support and encouragement in raising the issue. As a newbie, I'm very grateful to you for speaking up on our behalf (and also giving me a huge helping hand in the form of a certain handsome boy )
I think that the NDNH tests are a very good idea gives newcomers a great place to start. I also think that newcomers to the sport (I'm very new myself) should go to training classes which are run by a club or by a trainer so that they can get a better idea of what's involved and required. As for puppy tests if your entering a dog that hasn't even had a shot fired over it or in some cases never had "formal training" then surely this is an ideal opportunity to give the pup some experience and find out which bits need more work. The final score shouldn't really matter unless your actually going to try and win, after all they are some of the cheapest training days you can get. I've been lucky that I've got knowledgeable people around to help with training and help point me in the right direction. I've entered only four tests, been lucky enough to have some successes and have always been made to feel very welcome and found the judges extremely helpful and encouraging. Most tests I've turned up not knowing anyone at all but am getting to know more people as I go.
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Please look around at the age of some of the competitors in your tests and just give a thought to how little new blood is coming into the sport!
better not read my report then, as people might just start to move away!!
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