Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: Why shouldn't you train puppies?
I'm not 'getting' why the majority of gundog books and gundog people advise not to start 'proper-training' pups for gundog work until they are at least 6 months old. I did read of one reason (that made sense) and that being because if you are intending to send your dog to be professionally trained, the trainer wont want you to have mucked the pup up before they get their hands on it! The whole thing seems shrouded in mystery with warnings about how pup's are ruined by impatient owners. There's lots about letting pups be pups, and them not having a good enough concentration span, ruining the desire to retrieve and training bad habits but why does it have to be so?
I'm the first to admit that I'm super-impatient for waiting about for pups to grow up! I cannot resist training young pups and I find that, with the right sort of training, their capacity to learn is a bottomless pit. They have less imagination or self-will than older dogs and so are far less likely to make 'wrong decisions' when it comes to carrying out an exercise. I don't think that there is anything that can't be broken down into puppy-sized learning chunks and then built upon. I find that their concentration is often better than an adolescent dog as they have less going on in their heads. Also, the more you do with a pup, the better their ability to learn is. In my experience of training assistance dogs, I would expect them to know all the commands and task-work needed by 6 months and then after that it's just polishing up and adding the final touches. If they weren't able to pass their Gold Good Citizen test by a year I would be disapointed.
So I don't get why gundog work should be different.
I'm really interested to hear of any 'evidence-based' experiences. Does anyone else start training (and I mean more than just general obedience) from an earlier age? Is it more of a tradition not to start till later or does it really have disasterous effects in the long-term?
Whilst I would like to be able to be able to do gundog work with Mouse, it's not the be-all and end-all to me as there are other things that I love doing with my dogs as well, so I'm willing to carry on as I am, almost as an experiment. Then if it all goes horribly wrong I will have learnt an important lesson and will only have myself to blame!
But I'd love to understand more about the background and reasoning behind the traditional way. I'm just wondering if, now that training methods have started to be developed along a more behaviourist approach (I'm thinking clicker-training etc, and intend no disrespect towards traditional methods which have obviously worked well for many years!) if training from a young age is less risky than previously?
Am I talking a load of twaddle?!!!! If I make a right pigs-ear out of turning Mouse into an Ol' Gundog then you are absolutely free to gloat and say 'I told you so'!!
I have also heard and been told dont start training till they are 6 months. I have the same line of thought as you Becs I start all the basics from a young age and then build upon that. By keeping it short and fun its almost more like play than training throwing gloves around for them to retrieve or small balls.
I also find they pick things up easier as pups then when they reach adolesence, they are less distracted and want to be with you more, I also think it helps with the bonding of you and your pup as they want to please and you give them fun things to do so they want to be with you more. Also its easier to correct a pup and avoid problems like running off and pulling on the lead, coming back with retrieves etc if you teach this when they are young.
I also am guilty of being impatient and had to learn the hard way too much to soon = weeks of correcting, but as long as your pup enjoys what they are doing and its kept short, sweet and fun I dont see why not.
I have no idea about training other than what I've decided to do myself with Luna. I found that between the time we picked her up and 6months old that she'd learnt about all she needed to to live with us agreeably and more! - it's just been a matter of practice and extending the basics since then.
I'm always amazed when I read the 'traditional' literature you describe when they say start training at 6months because in my one experience starting at 6months misses out the time when the pups are most like sponges and absorb everything without trying.
I could write absolutely loads on this, but essentially.....
I start training a pup immediately. I've had enough now that i dont even really think about it, it's just the natural way that I manage the pup during its daily life. There won't be a point that i start training, everything is geared towards the end result. The pup is trained within the limits of its enthusiasm and aptitude.
In my opinion its not whether you train, but what you train that is critical. So for example I want a really keen and enthusiastic retriever, so i won't teach it to be steady until its as keen as I want it to be. I want them to hunt hard and independently, so I dont teach them too much handling until they are hunting with enthusiasm. The age is irrelevant, I just teach them what they need to know when I think they are ready and when any preceeding stage of the training has consistently been achieved to my satisfaction.
I dont want to put pressure on the pup to do things that it isnt ready to do, but i wouldn't hold it back for no reason.
The caution is to ensure that the pup is not pushed so far that its enthusiasm and and drive is diminished.
However on the other hand, starting later doesnt necessarily mean that time is lost. The first dog I trained seriously, I had nothing really to do with until he was 10 or 11 months, but he was 'ready' at the same age he would have been had i started from scratch.
Sally, the pup I'm training at the moment came to me at 7+ months with no training, but now at ten months she could comfortably pass the Gold Good Citizen. She is a bit beheind where she would have been had i started from scratch, but another couple of months and I doubt there will be much difference.
To a certain extent some of the old school advice centred on the training being pretty strict. Thus a slightly older, bolder pup would probably cope better.
Well I am not talking right or wrong ways here as I have tended over the years to do a bit of both.
But I think you will find the thinking is that to get the very best out of your pup for gundog training you want it to using all its natural instincts and abilities and certainly for competition work to reach the top you want your dog to be on the very edge of being out of control. So you have a pup who is kennelled and is allowed to do more or less what it likes for the first six months of its life before it is moulded into a competition gundog that can still hunt and use all its natural instincts.
A dog that is both a pet and a gundog lives a very different life and has to have some basic obedience and manners otherwise your life with it in your home will be a complete nightmare.
I actually come originally from an obedience background, but certainly I have found in Pepper and Spice that by letting them have there heads a lot more than my other dogs ever did it would appear that I will have a lot more natural ability to play with for competition work. Only time will tell really.
I guess it all depends what you define as "proper training" Becs.
Out of interest, what would your definition be?
You start training a pup from the day you get it home, but it's not a regimented programme, it is just play training, or conditioning.
By 6 months old, I would expect to have a pup stopping on the whistle, at a reasonable distance, and recalling. In the real world of working gundogs, if you can stop your dog, and get it back to you, you can get yourself out of any situation. Those are the two cornerstones around which everything else is built.
Personally, with my young Labs, I never bother much with retrieving because I know they can do it.
Been there, done it, got the tee-shirt. We will never make the same mistake again. We had a cracking little springer pup, she couldn't get enough training, she was brill you could stop her and sit her up with hand signals at full pelt coming back to you, left, right hand signals whistle she was as hot as mustard but by 18mths/2yr old she'd had enough.
So with Jess and Jay other than basic commands sit, stay, recall,walking to heel on and off lead. General good manners, NO barking etc. they had a carefree puppyhood until 12mths. Jess had little or no training to go picking up. Jay enjoyed a little dummy work, but just followed and watched Jay out in the field. They were encouraged to work hedges from 8 weeks old. Taught NOT to chase any living creature.
OH has 2 good picking up dogs, alright they are not Field Trial Standard but do what is wanted of them, giving otherhalf a stress free time when out either picking up, rough shooting or just out exercising.
My stepson was getting involved with Field Trial people and he wanted his lab to do what their labs did, even though his was only 9mths old, he nearly ruined her altogether but luckily enough he started to see signs that he WAS pushing her too fast and reined back.
Matt, Jill, and Andrew have all made some good points.
But like Andrew says what is training?
I think we all know that pups pick things up very quickly, but like all ready said it is not good to push them on to quickly. This is the time that you build a bond with your pup that will condition your relationship with it for ever.
Play training is fine, again I don't worry about the retrieving side for labs as like Andrew says that is what they are bred for. I would concentrate on heel work and the stop whistl which can be built in to the same exercise to start with.
Thank-you! Really interesting replies that have given me loads to think about.
I guess what I define as 'proper training' Matt, is teaching it a specific task that I have decided I want it to learn in order to reach a certain goal, rather than just reacting to something the dog does at any other time. For example, sitting a dog up and throwing dummies around it in order for the dog to learn to be steady to me is 'proper training' whereas expecting the dog to sit quietly whilst you put it's lead on to take it for a walk is more informal, 'lifeskills' (!) training, in my mind. I guess both are effective in practising steadiness and calmness but whereas I don't think anyone would argue that it's good for a pup to learn that, in order to go out for a walk, it must first sit calmly and not leap about grabbing the lead and rushing to the door, sitting a pup and throwing a few toys or dummies around it seems to be more contraversial.
Likewise, I will deliberately drop things on the floor when I am doing stuff in the kitchen and then praise the pup like mad if it picks it up and returns it to me, whereas doing a few retrieves in the garden appears to be more questionable in gundog-circles, unless your pup is older.
I think that the point that Jill made about house-dogs 'needing' to know their manners and a certain level of obedience and compliance in order to be be pleasant to live with, as opposed to a kennel-dog who can be more free-spirited is a very relevant point, and one that I hadn't really thought of. I'm guessing that the majority of traditional trainers would have had their pups kennelled?
It really interests me that Matt has said that the older pups he has started training have very quickly caught up with the pups he has had from the start. I had a very similar discussion with Di the other day when we were comparing Mouse and Tom's upbringing. My way of doing things (which I'm sure is because my background is that I have had pups for just the first year of their life to mould into shape for them to go off and become assistance dogs, and therefore I'm working against a clock!) is that I train like mad for the first 6 months, which is when I have believed a pup learn quickest and best, ease off for a few months whilst the pup goes through it's 'daft-head phase' and then go back and polish-up the training just before it hits a year, confident in the knowledge that all that it learnt as a pup is still in there. Having taken a few months break from the more focussed training, I have found that the pup is super-keen to get back into training and is mature enough to start expecting a higher degree of accuracy and precision from him. Whereas Di does the complete opposite and does very little for the first 6 months or so, and then starts to work with the pup and she obviously gets splendid results.
I think that where my inexperience of gundog-type training and inability is going to really show is recognising and nurturing the natural instincts and drive of a gundog! Jill writing "you want your dog to be on the very edge of being out of control" is a pretty scary idea for me as I don't know that I could be sure of keeping a dog on the right side of 'the edge' but I can completely see how this would be the ideal but maybe I'm a few dogs and many years away from reaching that level of handling!
Fred, your cautionary post was what I was more along the lines of what I was expecting to hear, and most worried about hearing!! What were the signs that the dog was being pushed too fast and why do you think your spaniel went to dramatically off the boil when she's shown so much promise? I think it might be something I need to know so I can recognise it!
Thanks again for the responses. Any further thoughts will be welcomed.
Such an interesting post and informative replies from everyone. As a first time gundog owner i can really understand Becs the difficulties with "when" to start training.
Personally I have been toiling with a heavy fear that im going to spoil my pup and that my inexperience will ultimately turn a lovely and well bred girl into a ASBO banned from every shoot within 100 miles of Yorkshire. This will of course be all my fault but luckely enough its going fine.
She is now 14 weeks old. She is very very young but she has quite a sensible, quiet head on her and she is very eager to please. She has the usual "mad moments" but apart from this is usually biddable and has the aptitude of a trainable bich.
So far we have ticked off "hups" and heal work on lead and are now working on stays and healwork off lead. Her recall is excellent and from day one has been given off lead time on walks. Wonderful to see her hunting and doing whats so natural . Both are going really well and to be honest she is taking them in her stride and im sure she is capable of moving onto the next step. Natasha did say that she would be an easy sort and she is proving right. It could be very easy to get excited and rush to the next stage but im very concious of not moving on until we have it 100% cracked,and also allowing her to enjoy her puppyhood. I think the above is more general obidience work and things that should be trained to every puppy, but skills that are very valuable in the field and will probably save you from being sent home in disgrace
Another thing that I insist on (at this stage) is that she she is limited to say 2-3 retrieves a week (often she doesnt get any at all), like many have posted above this is a natural instinct and one that I dont want to beat out of her. When she picks things up around the garden and house and brings them she is fussed and encouraged, sometimes we take it from her as she comes to us using "dead" and sometimes we walk her away at heel and then take it away. I just try to keep things interesting and non repetitive as she is clever enough to work it out and i I dont want her becoming too possessive.
It's a real minefield this training lark and you get so much advice from different people. I think the best thing is to look to your pup and take it from there, they alone can tell you if things are working, are that things are getting too heavy. I'v learnt to have a bit of faith in myself and when you find someone whos ways of training suit you and your dog absorb everything like a sponge. Alot of the posts on her are great helps too, Natasha, Monkey Boy, Di, and John (plus many others) where would us newbies be without you lol
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. Both are going really well and to be honest she is taking them in her stride and im sure she is capable of moving onto the next step. Natasha did say that she would be an easy sort and she is proving right. It could be very easy to get excited and rush to the next stage but im very concious of not moving on until we have it 100% cracked,and also allowing her to enjoy her puppyhood. I think the above is more general obidience work and things that should be trained to every puppy, but skills that are very valuable in the field and will probably save you from being sent home in disgrace 
