Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Drive/Desire altering how you train something....
Somehow I am really struggling with titles lately
This is prompted by the very interesting and goodhearted debate on teaching/using/needing an 'Over' command. Was reading some of the replies and I really do think a lot of how we teach an exercise or command depends on our individual dogs, or the habits we get into. That sounds very logical I know, but take Matt's phrase 'point and shoot'... I completely understand what he means and pictures by it. However for example, my own mostly showbred dogs do not particularly do 'point and shoot' so therefore, to get to the same place Matt is (to make our entry fee against him worthwhile so to speak!) I have to walk a different route to where I need to get.
For example, because of the less 'coiled spring' that I have 'under me' in the majority of the dogs I have trained and owned, I tend to need to 'drive them', rather than 'steady them', so therefore, just as one example, the idea of using Back to GET to a fence then DRIVING them over with an extra command of 'Over' is useful.
For a driven dog like Neils Oslo or Andrew's Charlie etc etc that would almost certainly be 'guilding the lilly' and giving them unnecessary propulsion they don't need. Infact I've seen many the driven trial bred dog go out on a back, straight past the dummy and gather itself to leap wire or whatever twenty yards past the dummy on that one quiet 'back!'. As much of a worry as needing three 'backs!' to get to the dummy in the first place (Although I'd kill for it - we always want what we haven't got - chuckle).
What I have found is bringing in half trial to little Fish, I am having to stop myself and Allan training him like one of the steadier showbred dogs. He doesn't need lots of hand clapping and leaping up and down like an idiot. Or bellowing and blasts on the stop whistle. He just needs quiet calm praise and a gentle wind up rather than a rocket shoved up his little behind verbally to do anything. the drive and desire is there. Its going to be harder bottling it than the other way round compared to what we are used to.
So a dog like Deeds NEEDS an 'over' at a fence to drive him and give that extra kick up the arse, even at the loss of a point or two. A dog like Fish almost certainly won't and training has to be adjusted accordingly.
I'm sure the need for an extra drive command also partly lays in faulty basic training in some areas, none of us are perfect, but this is all just to say that some of the many ways folks described the 'Over!' senario could well be because of the dogs they have all being different. Its not one thats right or wrong or simplier or more complicated, or unnecessary or necessary, its down to people realising what THEIR type of dog needs and using it.
Mallie for example is all showbred but needs no extra 'over', because the drive is there to go and go without any extra persuasion - so this is nothing to do with that show/trial debate or anything like that. Different type of dog, different way to train something in.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Just so, Di.
Horses for courses.
One needs to be able to read a dog and understand just what is needed to get the best out of it.
Sadly, it is where many training classes fall down, I am not just talking about gundogs. The class may have a set way of training and that is what is used. Some of the dogs the method will work fine, others get left behind.
I heard of a class in my area, where the trainer got frustrated with a dog and handler - kicked the dog and yelled at the handler!
Sherry
Equally I have a chap who I have been helping train his dogs. He has two youngsters one is 12 months and one around 8 months. My biggest problem is that I tell him to do a certain exercise with his 12 month old and how to deal with things when they go wrong and the next minute, without mentioning it to me, he is doing the same thing with his 8 month old who is a completely different sort of dog and needs training in a different way.
I find myself spending my whole time now saying I want you to go away and do such and such with Duke, but do not do it with Whiskey. One of the hardest thing to get through to beginners is that you train specifically for the dog in front of you. Gundog training just is not an exact science .
Can’t disagree with any of that, but I think it goes even deeper. Our dogs are half sisters and are as different as chalk and cheese. One is brimming with mainly misplaced confidence and the other constantly requires reassurance to have any kind of confidence at all, so we constantly have to remember which hat we should have on.
How much is nature and how much is nurture, I’m not sure. We feel partly responsible for never giving one of our dogs independence in training and working, always having her along with a very dominant older dog. That dog died and left the youngster all at sea for a bit. So we have tried not to make that mistake again.
Reading the dog and acting accordingly, not just in training, is so important.
Rach as soon as you start training you are able to read your pup.
I can only give examples of different working labs not show, but there are huge differences between say Pepper and Boots and I am training them very differently.
Di has from the beginning I think noticed the difference between Fish and her others.
The art of dog training is being able to read your dog and train appropriately.
I have to say I have only done basic training with Millie so far (not retrieving yet) and so far she is the same as Jake in terms of motivation. The only difference I have encountered so far is that she is much more laid back and even more steady! She certainly doesn't bounce around like a tigger (yet)
I think it's the mark of a good trainer, that they are able to adapt their methods and strategies to deal with the dog they have in front of them.
I've seen so many people that can only train one type of dog, and that applies all the way up the gundog ladder.
They are all different. What works with one, won't with another, you've got to learn to be able to read your dog, and have a good idea what "triggers" they have, and how to press them.
In terms of starting out with a pup Rach, you are only doing the very basics, so that's the time when you study your dog to assess what sort of character you are working with. Your later training strategies can then be formulated from there. That being said that dogs are like us, and their characters can change as they mature, so you may need to be change your original strategy.
One question though - if dogs are individuals (which I know they are), how do you go about deciding on the methods of training a new pup?
That’s a good question.
Some people will have a raw talent, at being one with their dog, but mostly it comes with experience. I bet there’s not a person on here that doesn’t get better at it with every dog they bring on.
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