Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: 'Over'
Would be really interested to hear what command you would use in this circumstance:
Picture this if you will.... a pheasant or dummy has landed 40 yards or so beyond a post and rail fence, which you and your dog are 100 yards or more from. The dog has not marked the pheasant/dummy thus it's a 'blind'.
Bearing in mind your position 100 yards or so from the fence and a further 40 yards from the retrieve, how do you send your dog:
1. with your specific command for a blind such as 'back' or whatever you use
2. with the command 'over' or other similar phrase you use to indicate to the dog that it has an obstacle to overcome on the way
and what would you expect your dog to do:
1. run straight out, jump obstacle and keep going until scenting and finding the retrieve
2. run straight out but be directed 'over' the obstacle by you and then for the dog on it's own initiative to keep going as above
3. as 2. but also be directed 'back' by you once over the obstacle
4. other
and which are/is acceptable and or ultimate aim (think in terms of competition work).
On our weekend away we were told to use over I think Helen if my memory serves me right . However I think I have found with my dogs that the command "back" works much better and it means you will go back in a straight line until I tell you to do something else whatever is in your way.
I did start to fiddle about with over with my youngsters, then I thought damn it why add in another word when it seems unnecessary. I go for simplicity!!!
Mind you I have also found with all these dogs that I am training at the moment that I tend to overtrain back and do not do as much on left and right. Hence when my dogs are a distance away from me if they are at all unsure they opt for back because that's the one I ask for the most . We are correcting that at the moment .
Last edited by Ettinsmoor on Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
On our weekend away we were told to use over I think Helen if my memory serves me right . However I think I have found with my dogs that the command "back" works much better and it means you will go back in a straight line until I tell you to do something else whatever is in your way..
'Nail on head' Jill This where I am getting a little nervous about..... 'Back' is so much clearer for me and the dog, ''over' when the obstacle is a distance away is not necessarilly so. Beginning to get the feeling of 'over handling' as a result and that's not always pretty! So not sure whether to persevere or not....
I agree entirely on the 'keeping it simple'. The less words of command the better.
For me back is - go back in a straight line until I say otherwise. For me, it is a case of watching the dog, if there is a hesitation at the fence, (you need to be able to read your dog) then I may add 'over'. I do teach what 'over' means. The dog may start to cast about in front of fence, in which case I would stop dog and get dogs attention then may say 'over', it all depends on the situation and the dog.
The dog may also cast about once over the fence, it is ok if you can see dog, but, you need to train in case you can't in which case - go back' means keep going until you find something. Just to add to the less words the better.I dont use the word 'stay'. 'Sit' means put your bum on the floor and don't move it until I say so.
Thank you Sherry. That would work ok for me, as the command 'over' is instilled in the brain (it's the distance element which is an issue when starting with the command 'over'). How would we be appraised at a test for going 'back' then 'over' should the dog hesitate at the fence (and I would say at this moment in time that's a real possibility) and even possibly 'back' again once over the other side if we take this option...
Use the out/back whatever you use, close to a fence so the dog gets used to going away from you and jumping, but also teach them to jump on command anyway, just in case they get a distant obstacle and look to you for guidance.
Use the same hand signal for your jump command as you use to send a dog back at a distance.
After all it's the same command in effect, go back away from me, except there's an obstacle in the way.
OK Andrew, so I have the command back up should I need it of 'over' but I should now concentrate on 'back' meaning not only away from me but keep going even over any obstacle unless I say so. OK that makes sense. As does the exercise you suggest. Thank you
I found, in the past, that different judges have different ideas. I kept a book and listed who likes what. It is only experience which is going to tell you. Some judges like to see a dog go out at a lick and not be interferred with. Some judges like to see you able to give commands which are obeyed eg stop at the wall and send back.
if you can see by your dogs body language that it is thinking about stopping, then it is better to maybe lose a point by using a command to push them on, rather than the dog having to be whistled to a stop and pushed back. It is all about quickly making split judgments on losing x points to gain y points.
It is easier if you have a hard fast dog, they just go in a straight line and aren't fazed by a fence in the way.
I also use 'over' for getting the other side of a ditch or a stretch of water
'get in' means it is on the water, 'get over' means it is on the otherside. Likewise for a ditch, 'get in' is in the ditch. 'over 'is the other side.
Oh for a remote control - but how boring!
Sherry
I use ‘over’ and 'in’ for water too, Sherry. I have to say it came in very handy at a test last year where there were two small ponds back to back – the dummy in the furthest one. So I sent him with an ‘over’ and he went straight across the first without hunting in the water and then when I saw him get out I shouted ‘in’ and was relieved to hear the splash…and he came back with the dummy!
Now 'in' I don't use but I do now remember you demonstrating that on one of the ponds at our shoot last summer Neil, and I was most impressed. How/why would 'back' not work on the test you mention Neil or is it coming back to having that 'back up command' should you need it?
Oh and how the 'ell are your dogs Neil and where are the photos?
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. However I think I have found with my dogs that the command "back" works much better and it means you will go back in a straight line until I tell you to do something else whatever is in your way.
. We are correcting that at the moment 
.
