Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: and the next mistake is.......stopping after releasing
wow I should write a book on how not to start gundog training.
So, please someone somewhere as a beginner must have made this mistake?
Basically, Basil has a stop whistle, works fine when still, at my side or free running.
He has been retrieving now for years, first as fetch and then only more recently attempting the proper stuff.
I am forever 'changing the rules' for this poor dog and obviously now I'm doing direction work I am needing to stop him on a retrieve to then direct him.......but he's never been stopped before after being released......for literally 2 years of retrieving.
After only a session or 2 I can work him between two dummies either side of him, sending him out, stopping him and then either swopping him to the other dummy or releasing him onto the first- but then the 'out' command is relatively new anyway so this isn't a major change for him.
But transfer that to a blind and 'back' command he is just so focussed on his release and too blimmin fast, ignored the whistle (if he even registered it at all) and starts to hunt.
Do I use a long line to encourage the stop if needed to start with? Do I wait until he's almost asking for my help ie I know he will stop as his pace has slowed? Do I not put a dummy out even to guarantee he will learn ignoring me gets him nowhere and then go and reprimand him for ignoring the whistle?
Has anyone esle tried to introduce this so late, any tips appreciated?
I am not sure what you are saying. Your jargon is different to what I am used to. Do you mean that when you send the dog out away from you, you want to stop him and send him on back?
Sherry
We teach the dogs the stop whistle by sitiing them up walking away, calling the into us then use the stop whistle backed up by a high hand signal and verbal command sit you can only do this a couple of times as it can make them anticipate you asking them to stop so you have to change it from asking tham to stop and asking them t come straight in.
When you have got this then you can start on the stop and sending in a direction. Again using the whistle hand and voice, If that doesnt work go out get your dog and put them back where you belw the whistleand agin use the stop whistle when you get there. Again you have to be carefull as it could make the dog sticky.
I am guessing when you say you send him on a retrieve you throw one left one right send him for one, Stop him before he gets there then send him for the other?
I hope that all makes sense, I am not very good at explaining and Im sure there are other ways of doing it, thats just the way we do it .
If you mean just getting the dog to stop on the whistle, having a dummy out already will make things harder. Dog will see your whistle as a hinderance and not as a help as it should be. So, you need to make the dog believe that he/she is getting something out of it.
The way I do it is - when you are just around dog - doesn't have to be a training session - blow your stop whistle, with your hand held high (I call this your brake) In your hand I would have a very small treat and walk towards your dog and bring hand down to treat. Keep dog where it is and walk back to where you were, then release dog. Never call dog up from stop and this can make dog think that a stop whistle means come back to you and you then have to keep taking dog back to where it should have stopped.
Once you can stop dog on whistle at a reasonable distance then you can introduce dummy.
Blow whistle to stop. Hold up hand above your head holding a dummy. Throw dummy over dogs head. Keep your hand high (remember this is your brake!) Wait until dog looks at you before you attempt to send as dog should always wait until you say go. When dog is focused on your hand and if you have used treat method, it is easy, use pushing movement with hand to send back.
If the dog as much as twitches, growl at the dog and go and get the dummy yourself and start again.
The purpose of a stop whistle is for you to help to find the dummy/bird quickly.
For a Retriever, a retrieve is the ultimate reward, food a close second, so by using these rewards you get a solid stop. Remember, if the dog helps himself, you are stuffed and have to start over again.
Never call dog up from stop and this can make dog think that a stop whistle means come back to you and you then have to keep taking dog back to where it should have stopped.
The two whistles are different the stop whistle and the recall whistle. I have not had a problem with training for the stop, using the method I have described above. The dog should know the recall whistle before trying to introduce the stop whistle, so the dog does not confuse the two whistles.
The two whistle calls are different, but are best trained in separate sessions. I have trained hundreds of dogs and their owners, many who have had training hiccups. One of the most common is not stopping on whistle and trying to return to handler instead. The method I explained, stops that. Many dogs are trained by the method you describe. Usually by experienced trainers and are very good at what they do. However, if someone is having difficulty, then taking it stage by stage helps.
Thanks ladies, sorry I posted this last night then disappeared offline.
I probably haven't explained mself well.
I have trained the stop whistle in so much as Basil will stop by my side if heeling and I can carry on. If there is no dummy out and we are just out walking I can stop him at a distance even if he is going at a bit of a canter.
I have just started putting 2 dummies out either side, Basils sat up in front of me and taught him directions with an 'out' command. I can also stop him on the way to either dummy and as Sam says re-direct him.
The bit I have only just started but need some tips on is using the whistle after I have released him with a 'back' command - either to then stop him to direct him to a blind or to have 2 dummies out and re-direct him. I'm sure with a young fresh dog it'd be fine but I think the issue is because he has retrieved for so long without me interrupting that he either doesn't listen, chooses to ignore it or is simply confused that in his mind he hasn't completed the last command as 'back' or 'basil' has previously meant run out and bring me the dummy!
So my query was how can I make him realise he needs my help now and needs to stop to find the dummy , hence me asking if i should use a line to enforce it, put no dummy out and let him run out and just wait it out until he looks like he needs help and so is likely to stop and THEN blow.
Basically when he hears 'back' or 'basil' he thinks he has it covered and I need to teach him my stop will help.
I'm not sure now i've typed it that i've explained it any clearer
Sarah sometimes you make things so complicated you trip Basil and yourself up.
I agree entirely with how Sherry teaches stop and do things the same way.
I have to say I would never ever ever send my dog right towards a dummy and then stop it and send it left I would just end up with a dog that slows and hesitates all the time looking for instruction, or a dog that totally ignores me.
in my very humble opinion and it might be completely wrong but can you look like you've placed a dummy for the back and then not place it or pick it up without him noticing, then send him for the back, he'll get to that spot, not find it, no doubt look at you and then you can stop him and re direct and he'll learn that you are there to help?
please ignore this if anyone with more experience disagress!
____________ Sam, Coal & Finn
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, hence me asking if i should use a line to enforce it, put no dummy out and let him run out and just wait it out until he looks like he needs help and so is likely to stop and THEN blow.
