Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: spitting the dummy - UPDATE p5 :)
Basil and I had a really great training session on Tuesday, I was buzzing.
But today has left me a little flat.
Great off leash heelwork, steadiness spot on but he spat the dummy at me every time (I know I should have stopped at 1 but I so wanted to end positively and I thought it was a blip)
Way back I taught Basil in our play to seek a dummy and drop it at my feet and rewarded him. He was a natural holder
It took a lot of effort to sort that, change the game, the commands, used a toy while I taught hold etc and reintroduced the dummy with a good solid retrieve to hand, so I'm now gutted that he's spitting....and it's my fault.
It seems to be coinciding with his adrenalin, his return from a retrieve has really become pacier and now seems just as fast as when I send him out. I realised today that instead of making him sit and present like I used to I have been taking the dummy from a standing position faster and faster recently and so he is more or less dropping on arrival and i'm catching it now. But I don't know how to go back
After the first spit today I tried crouching down which was much better but all attempts at saying 'hold' as he approached with me standing up were ignored.
I tried turning and walking to heel but as soon as I leaned down or stopped to take it he dropped, once he just dropped it at the back of my heels anyway
I tried asking him to sit as he ran in, he dropped the dummy and sat.
I took the rabbit fur off as it was really thick with mud just in case that was the issue but the canvas got caked quick so I'm not really any clearer.
Any tips? If I say hold and heel him with a toy/dummy then that works fine when not after a retrieve. He brings me things all the time at home and waits until I take them so I think this is defintely his excitement at retrieving and my excitement at taking
Would swopping down to a 1/2lb dummy help for a while, he's never looked comfortable with a 1lb as he has quite a small jaw
I'm not sure if he was playing me or if he just wondered why I wasn't taking it as soon as he returned
sorry just to clairfy he is coming right in to my feet holding it (not spitting from a distance) it's just as he arrives the second I bend he is starting to release and it's become a grab on my part before it hits the floor. If i just stand there he drops it at my feet now and sits up
Thanks for reading
Last edited by Basil on Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
This is a subject very close to my heart at the moment Sarah because I have had problems with Pepper. My dogs are always very soft mouthed and he has never been 100% reliable. As we have pushed on with his training (and probably done too much retrieving too soon as Darcy was in whelp and so Pepper got more training) it has got worse.
Over the Christmas period I had a complete break from training him for two weeks, then I gradually brought him back starting him right from the beginning again as if he was a small pup and doing lots of recalls and calling him in and when he was presenting right in front of me blowing the stop whistle for him to sit. Lots and lots of this until it was ingrained in his wee brain. Then using the pheasant shaped dummies that Natasha recommended (because the standard dummies encourage picking up by ends and swinging about) I started placing the dummy out sending him for the dummy and as he came back to me putting my hands behind my back (stops you being tempted to grab ) I blow the stop whistle (like you if I say sit he drops but he will accept the stop whistle). He is like another dog, so brilliant when we went for a training session the other day the trainer couldn't believe it was the same dog.
Now gradually I am reintroducing the standard dummies as they will be used in working tests. Always using them at the beginning of the training session and then moving back to the pheasant shaped ones, and very very gradually I will start to cut out the stop whistle.
It's worth a try anyway as you sound as if you have tried most other things.
Edited to add that this is not a way I would recommend for teaching a small pup. It is for a slightly older dog where the problem has crept in without you noticing .
Last edited by Ettinsmoor on Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
The trick that worked for Hudson was to walk back a few steps - I had to keep looking at him and just take a few steps backwards and he came closer to me. I have tried leaving him holding it and carrying on walking, but sometimes he kinda gives me this "Do you think I'm a mug look" then drops it like yesterdays news! I think if I bend in to receive too soon, he sort of rolls it out of his mouth... little sod!
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Thanks Jill that is really helpful, I could really kick myself for having created this.
I just got sloppy not expecting a sit and taking it from a stand just got hastier and hastier on my part.
I'll definitely put my hands behind my back and try the whistle - if he does then drop before sitting do I just ignore it and hope there's a success somewhere along the line to lavish with praise?
I've been thinking about one of the smaller partridge dummies anyway so i'll give that a go. I much prefer to swop the retrieve item while i'm working on a problem and when I'm confident it's better get back to a regular canvas dummy.
Why do you move from canvas to pheasant through the session? Is spitting more of a problem when a dog is tired mentally?
Do you start walking back just as he gets to you then, while he's still in motion?
So in theory do I do this to lengthen how long he is holding it for and then eventually I won't need to pace as he'll remember he doesn't give it over the second he gets to me?
I think if I could just keep him holding it an extra few seconds it would calm him down enough for my' hold' command to actually be effective.
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I think if I bend in to receive too soon, he sort of rolls it out of his mouth... little sod
Yep that's it. I think that's where it started to go wrong for me then today I realised he's not even waiting for my hand to get close , let alone say 'thank you' and physically take it
in my very humble experience, lengthening the retreive so the dog has something to get his teeth into. with mine short retreives cause spitting because its dull to him, put a bit of distance on them and its straight into hand. but my dog is rather strange, even at the best of times
Make sure you run through it all without the dummy first Sarah so he knows exactly what is being asked of him, so right back to lots of recall with stop whistle in front of you. When that is solid then bring the dummy in.
If he still drops then probably that method isn't for you and you are going to have to try something else. I have to admit it was the very last thing that I tried with Pepper so I was getting pretty desparate .
Well Pepper is still a young dog (11 months) so yes his best retrieves tend to be at the beginning of a session hence bringing the standard canvas dummies in then.
I start just as he is slowing down to stop. Huds doesn't sit to present He spits if he sits! I think for us anyway, part of the problem is that he knows the sooner I take it off him, the sooner he gets the chance of getting it again!
As Jill rightly points out, if you don't dive into get it... which I am VERY guilty of doing, then he has a chance of holding on to it. I'm going to try that same thing with hands behind my back.
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I have really being lengthening Basils retrieves and doing a lot of long memories, they really get his adrenalin going and he runs like a bullet.
I think part of this rush to get rid of it is he's a 'what next' type dog when he gets going.
I find if I shorten it he's more controlled, but yes bored, I tried some very short ones today (heck I tried everything we must have done a dozen failed retrieves which wont have helped) in the hope I'd get a nice delivery.....but no
Make sure you run through it all without the dummy first Sarah so he knows exactly what is being asked of him, so right back to lots of recall with stop whistle in front of you. When that is solid then bring the dummy in.
I must confess to never having blown a stop whistle after a recall, he just finishes a recall with a sit anyway.
I'll introduce it though minues the dummy in the hope it will then help with the retrieve.
Jill - when Pepper did used to drop did you ever say anything? Do I just ignore it
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I think for us anyway, part of the problem is that he knows the sooner I take it off him, the sooner he gets the chance of getting it again!
Fee- yep Basil is a 'what's next now Mum' type dog in training too.
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