Very interesting thread and has come along at just the right time for me! I went to a new training class last night (to do KCGC Bronze as my previous trainers weren't getting the numbers to make putting a class on worthwhile) and got a telling off for not talking to my dog constantly. I actually think my dog does quite well at heelwork, recalls etc, but I'm new to everything and may well be wide of the mark and totally biased!! I was told I need to be holding some treats in my hand to keep her beside me with her head up at all times, and also to be constantly saying "watch me" and praising like there's no tomorrow. My previous trainers were also very much of the praise and reward school of training, but didn't overly push us trainees to do the high pitched, strike up the band, bring on the cheerleaders, crack open the bubbly type praise! I felt like a right plonker as it's just not me; I consider myself a quiet and steady type of girl and don't want to be talking to my dog constantly! I also mentioned that I was interested in doing some gundog training and was in the very early days of getting started with this (thanks again to Feebarn for showing me the basics last weekend and encouraging me to give it a go ) The trainer wasn't impressed.
To cut a long ramble short.... will I confuse Bracken if I comply with the APDT trainer's methods at the classes, but tone it down at home? Will she get confused if I do good citz and gundog club grade 1 type stuff at same time?
Becs, sorry for jumping in on your thread and asking questions - hope this is ok!
Very interesting thread and has come along at just the right time for me! I went to a new training class last night (to do KCGC Bronze as my previous trainers weren't getting the numbers to make putting a class on worthwhile) and got a telling off for not talking to my dog constantly. I actually think my dog does quite well at heelwork, recalls etc, but I'm new to everything and may well be wide of the mark and totally biased!! I was told I need to be holding some treats in my hand to keep her beside me with her head up at all times, and also to be constantly saying "watch me" and praising like there's no tomorrow. My previous trainers were also very much of the praise and reward school of training, but didn't overly push us trainees to do the high pitched, strike up the band, bring on the cheerleaders, crack open the bubbly type praise! I felt like a right plonker as it's just not me; I consider myself a quiet and steady type of girl and don't want to be talking to my dog constantly! I also mentioned that I was interested in doing some gundog training and was in the very early days of getting started with this (thanks again to Feebarn for showing me the basics last weekend and encouraging me to give it a go ) The trainer wasn't impressed.
To cut a long ramble short.... will I confuse Bracken if I comply with the APDT trainer's methods at the classes, but tone it down at home? Will she get confused if I do good citz and gundog club grade 1 type stuff at same time?
Becs, sorry for jumping in on your thread and asking questions - hope this is ok!
Well if your a quite kind of girl then thats how you should train your dog. I hardly ever speak to my dogs during training or when out walking. They only under stand certain tones, so why bamble on and confuse them. When I speak to them i expect them to react.
Like Johnw said to much praise can be counter active. Keep it simple and you wont go far wrong.
I'm sure someone told me... might even have been the Gundog Club trainer, the more that you hold conversation with your dog, the more likely they are to ignore you in that they get accustomed to the words and don't listen. I do feel this is true... I definetly have been aware of Pasco not listening!
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Well, it seems like there are several different views on this!
I guess that for Zorro, I'll keep going as I am, but then maybe try to start off a little less demonstrative with new-pup (as long as he/she isn;t a puddingy lump!)
I praise Berry completely differently depending on the training we are doing. In gundog work everything is very calm and relaxed, praise is a quite 'good boy' and an ear rub or a chest scratch, in agility everything is about hyping him up, getting him excited and every last bit of speed out of him. When I'm shaping a behaviour using a clicker I'm quiet and leave him to figure it out but as soon as he does it's a massive party, then quiet again until he does it again.
Saying that though I do end every gundog session by having a game with his ball on a rope - yes I do mean 'playing ball' and tug .
In any training interaction what is the result of the action (the praise / reward) I’ve just taken? Has it encouraged the dog to do the task, better, faster, straighter? Has it improved the control or does it seem to be having a negative impact? Does any excessive reward actually reduce the quality of the end result (for example the dog that then gets too excited) Would the dog have performed the task in the same way (or even better) without the praise? – was it something the dog wanted to do anyway? Will the impact of continual praise / reward mask the occasions when you really do want to mark exceptional achievement?
I really hate using human analogies, but if a person got a pay rise every time they took their lunch break on time, then it would require a great deal more reward to motivate them to complete a really challenging project.
I feel with a bit of experience under my belt, I know exactly what I want to achieve with the dog, and want I want the end performance to look like, and I know what ‘better’ or ‘worse’ would look like. Any training praise or reward is completely determined by my gut feel / experience of what is going to motivate the dog to perform the task to the standard that I’m looking for. I also know what level of reward I could use in the shooting field and competition environment. That certainly doesn’t mean that I would always get it right, but I do believe that having a clear idea of the end objective is really important.
With my own dogs that have been carefully chosen for their breeding, and nurtured in their early days with me, I don’t find that praise or reward is something that I have to give a great deal of thought to beyond the puppy days – or maybe I now things without consciously thinking about them. However when dealing with one-to-one or class lessons, it’s very much about finding the key that unlocks the door for that particular dog. There is always a balance to be struck, and when I watch people struggling to train a dog the basic cause often seems to be the extent, quantity and timing of both reward and correction.
Moj,
There is a solid link between the performance required for basic gundog training and Good Citizen. As a trainer of both gundog and GC I would expect a part-trained gundog to breeze through all three levels. However the manner in which some obedience classes are taught is fine for the inside of a hall, but don’t often stand up to much pressure in the real world. I could get almost any dog to follow me round with a sausage, but that doesn’t translate to a dog that is going to walk to heel without any commands when there are birds being shot and other dogs retrieving.
I think I feel happier in my own mind that, for the time being at least, whilst Zorro is still not that clear on what the whole point of standing in a cold, frosty field watching me fling dummies about, I need to try and convince him that its the best fun ever! If this means me throwing in the odd cartwheel and high-kick, then so be it! Maybe with my next 'proper' puppy, I will be able to aspire to a more sophisticated "that'll do" and a flick of the ear to express my delight!
I praise max lavishly on recall as it's the thing he doesnt do too well. Exceptionally keen and very attentive when the dummy is launched but I have to encourage him a lot to bring it 'right' back............otherwise he stops about 5 feet away. Having said that I do get better results with my looney shouting of him than OH does as he is probably a bit embarrassed to make so much fuss
Even then, it's still hit and miss........and that's what is so frustrating with Max, one minute he is brilliant.......then the next, its back to doing what he wants.
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) The trainer wasn't impressed.
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