Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: Excessive praise and reward in G.D Training?
Just mulling and reflecting a bit on the gundog classes I'm so anamored with!
In the class there are 3 of us 'newbie-pet-dog' trainees and one lady (who owns the venue and breeds and works her dogs and just comes to join in for the fun of it).
You can spot who's who by the amount of fuss and praise we make of our dogs when they do something right!
There's me, 'clicking and treating' with Zoz, the other 2 Newbies strike up a brass band and throw a street party when their dogs comply with a command, and then the 'old hand' (who has the youngest pup who she says she hasn't done any training with till now- I think the pup's about 7 months) who doesn't really make any fuss when her dog does something right and is more likely to correct him when he does what I think is a smashing retrieve, for not sitting properly when he presents it. Yet her dog is probably the most (naturally) gifted and very compliant, compared to the others.
So what I'm asking is, when I get my 'proper' gundog pup, should I rein in the praise and fuss? It's going to mean a whole new way of training dogs for me if I do, as I'm a right cheer-leader normally! I am dead keen to learn all that I can now, so I can try and reduce the number of mistakes I make with new-pup.
Praise should always be quiet and calm. What you dont want is for the praise to be such that the dog gets worked up to the extent that it forgets what it's getting the praise for. Yes, I believe over praising can be just as counter productive as under praising. A quiet gentle fondle of the ear will convey that you are pleased without hyping the dog up.
Thanks for that John.
Can I ask though, does the breeding/temperment have any baring on it? Only the 'professional's' dog seems to me to be typically very gundog-ish in thats its dead keen and all of a-quiver when asked to do anything, where as Zorro is more 'pudding-ish' (!) about it all!
I've trained pups (not in gundog work naturally) who sometimes need to get really excited to gee them up and need to be praised to the hilt to get them 'into' the training, and others who you do need to be very calm and hands-off with. Zorro's joy has always been in being praised and fussed, and I think that if I was more low key about it, he'd switch off a bit (or maybe thats just me, or maybe its because it's all still new to him and he isn't perfroming for the joy of the actually work yet?)
I've done it both ways now... having learned that striking the band isn't always necessary!
In part.... I'm sure that breeding comes into it. Pasco doesn't need much in the way of praise, a little flick of the ear and his tail wags like a nutter. Hudson though likes all the good boys, what a little special soldier etcs and could care a fig for getting an ear tussle!
Interestingly to me, I went to spend some time with a different trainer recently and I got reminded to keep encouraging Hudson back to me with the retrieve! This was a whole new concept to me as previously I'd mostly been told to talk as little as possible!!!! Horses for courses I guess!!!
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does the breeding/temperment have any baring on it?
In my very limited experience I would say this has a huge baring on it. I never have to praise Mojo for a retrieve; the fact that I have "allowed" her to go and hunt for the dummy and fetch it back is reward enough in itself. I do just then either correct her or give her quiet "Good Girl" when she delivers the dummy to hand. If I made a big fuss when she got back, I think she would blow a gasket .
Teaching a retrieve to Oyster (totally retrieveless) and Una (some natural ability but not much) was totally different. I had to REALLY gee them up before I had even thrown the dummy and then make a big fuss as they were coming back, or else they would go off the boil and drop the dummy to go and do something far more interesting instead.
Funnily enough....now thinking about it....I have never had to give Mojo a lot of praise for doing anything, she is just happy doing what I ask and getting it right.
Certainly a line, bred for many generations for it's ability and bidability could be expected to work better and train easier than a dog not bred with that in mine. But when it comes to praise, no, I dont think so, not in that way. I've used exactly the same philosophy in my pet classes. But I also take the same approach to discipline, telling people that the worst discipline a dog can imagine is the worst you have ever used on it, it cannot imagine anything else because it is completely out of its field of experience. A dog regularly thrashed can get quite blasé about it, really not accepting a telling off as being discipline at all. But a dog only use to a mild rebuke could go to pieces over a real verbal assault.
And so with praise. If you regularly go to town on the praise then anything less is not seen as "Real praise." So you can see, how, how you start praise dictates how you need to continue. Any change in method needs to be gradual or it will cause confusion in the dog's mind.
My 1-2-1 trainer is always berating me for not giving enough praise!
I use different types of voices for different things - if it's new stuff the praise is a lot more hyper than if it's regular stuff he should know by now.
I was pretty sure I had the right balance of praise & quiet, but my trainer wants me to do things differently - which, let's face it, he has forgotten more than I know about gundog work so I'm more than happy to do what he says!
I use different types of voices for different things - if it's new stuff the praise is a lot more hyper than if it's regular stuff he should know by now.
Same as Ness says above for me.
Like John just a gentle touch is enough once they know something.
With a pup a lot of the early stuff is play training so I don't think praise and treats will be an issue you can do as much as you need and then tone it down once the nistincts take over and the delight of training and your time becomes self rewarding (though no treat for an actual retrieve or you'll get a dropper )
Praise really does depend on the dog. I will give you three very different examples as even though all my dogs are related they are all different.
Rocky, my boy who you all know I adore, I would so love to be able to praise him, but I can't. If I do I will have to prise him off the ceiling. A little smile maybe a little tickle on the chest is all he can have.
Darcy, daughter of Rocky, my super sensitive girly, I praise like mad. She has to know she has got it right or her whole world will fall around her ears, but oh can you see her confidence build as she gets more and more things right. She gets absolutely everything, a round of applause, as you say the whole brass band thing which normally I would keep for a young pup, but for her you can't take it away, even though she is now over 2.
Pepper, son of Rocky, so far he is something imbetween the two, which is great, fantastic, so promising. I can behave pretty normally with him. I can actually say Good Boy (I never could with Rocky without an explosion). It is so refreshing.
Just to give you three examples from the same family!
Edited to add and that is the art of any dog training "Know your dog" .
Last edited by Ettinsmoor on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
This is a really interesting thread Becs - Jasper I praise like mad when retrieving as thats what he needs but for recall, sit/waits etc he just needs Good Lad and a stroke of the ear.
OH's ESS doesn't need any praise when retrieving/hunting etc but to get him to recall needs lots of encouragement otherwise he's off with the fairies
I'd never really thought of it but I shall watch how and what I do with Jasper over the next few days especially as we start training classes next week! Eeek
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