Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Health Hip/Scores and Eye test.
It seems that this subject is a hot topic, so lets have a chat about it
Here is a bit about me Mystery (Kevin) to keep the record straight. Live in the back of beyond in the Highlands until yesterday was dogless (have had several rescues) now we have 2 5mth old labs Laird & Ghillie), a 4yr old daughter (Kieller) 2 cats (Skibo & Bentley) and the all important OH (Alyson) WE ARE NOT BREEDERS and we DO NOT have or have we had at ANYTIME a litter of any sort or breed, nor do we have any intention in breeding from these pups now or at anytime, there are more than enough puppies and dogs to go around and have no wish to add to those numbers.
This thread is NOT aimed at getting people to NOT having dogs Hip/eye tested, that would be a very stupid move by anyone seeking to purchase a dog of any breed. Both of our puppies have been tested and have the following results.
(Sorry!!!!!! should read as there parents Shire as per Ghillie and Dam as per Laird) DOB of both pups is 7/4/07 thanks will change that too. Never had a pedigree and info before
Ghillie Hip Score 3/5 Eye Unaffected by TRD<GPRA<CPRA,HC
Laird Hip Score 0/0 Eye Unaffected by TRD<GPRA<CPRA,HC.
As I understand it the scheme was introduced to breeds other than GSDs in 1983, it scores hips on a scale of 0 to 108 54 for each hip, the lower the score the better.
Again as I understand it the scores are as follows :- 0-4 was described as "within standards of Normality" and scores 5-8 were the equivalent of what is known as a "breeders Letter?" After some 24yrs of hip scoring one is left wondering from what source and on what basis the BVA/KC conjured up a standard which they claimed to be 'Normality' which is said to be equal to a score of 0-4. I have tried to obtain details of Normality from the BVA/KC without luck.
Now this is why, I asked question about the scheme, and where does temperament fit in? and how is it tested? and again what is classed as Normal with temperament and how was the detail obtained.
I look forward to having a debate NOT a war or a Slanging match.
From my point there is nothing personal against anyone in or who posts in the thread, If I am wrong I look forward to being able to read a copy of 'Normality' on both scores.
YOU should always use the best means available to ensure your dogs Health and Temperament, and this means using these schemes, and I would NOT say otherwise.
Be Lucky
Kevin
Last edited by mystery on Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Health Hip/Scores and Eye test.
Quote:
Ghillie Hip Score 3/5 Eye Unaffected by TRD<GPRA<CPRA,HC
Laird Hip Score 0/0 Eye Unaffected by TRD<GPRA<CPRA,HC.
Intrigued at their hip scores considering they are only 5 months old as labs can't be scored until they are over 12 months
mystery wrote:
As I understand it the scheme was introduced to breeds other than GSDs in 1983, it scores hips on a scale of 0 to 108 54 for each hip, the lower the score the better.
Labradors are on a scale of 0 to 106 (53 on each side)
Yep - Alsations / GSD's were the first to be tested in round 1979 I believe - but even at the time there was known problems with the GSD, in part, I believe through the desire to see an increasingly sloping back which has now been replaced by the rounded sloping back courtesy of the importation of dogs from the European mainland - (and IMHO making the dog a different breed to what it was 30 years ago, but thats for another day ) - it was already well publicised that Labs suffered from similar hip problems
I'm sorry I've missed the thread about you finding your rescue pups, good on you for finally tracking down the lucky ones who'll live out their days with you
But I am somewhat confused... you've written that you have 2 x 5mth labs... but their DOB in your user profile is 7 May 07, which makes them 4 months old.... and you cannot score a 4 month old pup, they can't be scored until they're 12 months old, you can't even have the scoring Xrays taken before they are 12 months.... so what are the hip scores you've posted above??
From what I understand of hip scoring, each breed has a mean score, e.g. the average of the scores of all the dogs scored. For each breed the mean score would change as to what is "normal" for that breed. I've not read anything about "Normality" etc so can't comment on that, we've only just gotten to the stage of thinking about having Ozzie scored now that he's 1.
I think he meant the parents were hip scored not the pups, having spoken to Kevin
____________ Natalie x
LAB LINK RESCUE Co ordinator and Forum Administrator for my sins
Jack, Molly & Maia, watched over by Tara Banana from the Bridge
I think that temperment would be impossible to test and score.
Everyone has a different expectation of what an acceptable temperment is. For one person this could mean being very placid, never jumping up at people, no barking, allowing kids to maul it without retaliation, whereas the next person might expect a more 'in-yer-face', reactive kind of dog.
And at what age would you test the dog's temperment? At a year old as you do with hips and elbows? Because if you did that, then nurture might have a greater influence than nature. Whereas a very reactive, nervy pup may grow into a reasonably sound adult dog if raised in a sensible and sound way, but if bred, may produce nervy and overly sensitive pups.
However, I think that the point that someone raised in an earlier topic-post about how a very good 'show' dog might have a temperment that wasn't worthy of being bred from was interesting. When people come on LF asking for advice about breeding from their dog, they are generaly questioned if their dog has 'proved itself' either in the show ring or working, as well as the all-important health-tests. But only the smallest percentage of Labs actually work or are shown, the majority being purely pets. So I suppose, one could think that, as long as your dog has done well in the ring or at work and has good health scores, its acceptable to produce a whole lot more like it, but the temperment might be pants!
And I suppose that, even if when we go to view a litter of pups and ask to see the dam, we only see her in her home environment and she could be a devil with other dogs, or nervous with traffic and crowds, a very 'hard' dog to handle or anything really.
Maybe there should be some type of Duke of Edinbrough award scheme for dogs where the dog could earn credits over different elements. The health screening could be one part, maybe something to do with it being true to type in appearence, another for being fit and able to do the job it was bred to do, and another for good works to the community and being a jolly decent kind of a dog!!!
I'm glad this topic is being discussed again as so many new peole join the forum and it gives them a chance to see and think about different (and similar) points of view.
I guess that with health tests as they are today, nothing gives a dead cert, but they are the best we have (for now- who knows what they will discover in the future) and we would be daft not to use them when they are so accessible.
Maybe there should be some type of Duke of Edinbrough award scheme for dogs where the dog could earn credits over different elements. The health screening could be one part, maybe something to do with it being true to type in appearence, another for being fit and able to do the job it was bred to do, and another for good works to the community and being a jolly decent kind of a dog!!!
Thats not a bad idea!
I know its not quite the same thing, but within the cat breeding/showing world. Not everyone who breeds shows and not everyone who show's also breeds and vice versa! I know of a number of very very reputable breeders who do not show (but who's "offspring" do very very well in the show arena), and there are a number of handlers who show but have no inclination to breed . There can be a bit of a "stigma" attatched to those members who do not breed or show (whichever they choose not to), unless they are very very well known and have been around for a number of years. This is a shame, as you don't have to be a great show handler to be a fantastic breeder (naturally you have to know your lines and have your "eye" in), and you are allowed just to enjoy the thrill of showing without wanting the hassle of breeding!
So i suppose what i am getting at is that some sort of scheme for new breeders who don't want to show would be a great idea (and for those that do ). To have their dog assessed by judges for its quality, and another for its health tests, finally finishing with a test for good citizenship would be a great way to give a seal of approval on it being a suitable parent for the next generation.
Rarely do potential owners ask too much about the temperament (i'm talking kittens again as i have no puppy experience) of the parents, and they just judge that privatly when they see the mother. I make a point of mentioning the particular temperaments of the kittens as individuals, the parents and the general breed temperament, just as much as i discuss health issues within the breed, the pedigree and whether the kitten is the best example and suitable for show or pet homes. However i am sure if i didnt mention it, the new owners wouldnt either!
I would hope that EVERY responsible breeder breeds not only for type and health but also for temperament.
Certainly as far as Working Labs are concerned temperament plays a very important part. The labs are expected to work alongside all sorts or other dogs and the beating line includes children. Most of my dogs work is carried out off lead and they have to ride on all sorts of vehicles sitting quietly at my feet whilst squeezed in with dogs they may have never met before.
If they were to show any signs of a bad temperament towards other dogs or people or children I would be sent home and not invited back
But the question is how much of this is down to my training and how much is down to breeding? I believe that with each dog the percentage would be different. As an example my yellow Willowyck dog is a grumpy devil with other dogs (not people) and believe me I can see when he is thinking about whether it is worth having a snap at another dog. He doesn't risk it because I have trained him not to. He is castrated I would not dream of breeding from him! My other three reds don't even think about it. It just isn't in their nature.
Quite often people will say that using a dog (at stud) will change a dogs temperament but yet again it depends on the dog. My red dog would never dream of getting involved in any aggro he just walks away.
I cannot comment on the show side of things but as far as pet dogs that are bred from are concerned I would say that it is possibly even more important that the dam and sire are of a good temperament as the pups will all be for pet homes and the training side may be not quite as focused shall we say.
At the end of the day it is all down to BALANCE. We have yet to find the perfect dog so all we can do is select by health testing, temperament, working ability, confirmation etc. etc. and try to breed the most balanced dog to suit our requirements and the requirements of the homes that the puppies will go to.
All times are GMT Goto page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Next
Page 1 of 6
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
which has now been replaced by the rounded sloping back courtesy of the importation of dogs from the European mainland - (and IMHO making the dog a different breed to what it was 30 years ago, but thats for another day 
he just walks away.
