Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: breeding questions - new to forum
We have two labs, one male chocolate, Hunter and one female yellow, Sammy. Hunter is 4 and Sammy is 2 1/2. We want to try and breed the two but the female is not cooperating. We think we know when she goes into heat but she will not stand for him at all. We have breed him before. Could she still be too young? Are we doing something wrong? She gets very upset with him and will not let him near her. Any information anyone has would be greatly appreciated.
Personally for a start, I wouldn't be putting yellow to choc
Secondly, what is it about the 2 dogs that makes them perfect for each other in every respect, looks, pedigrees etc, that would make a choc to yellow mating OK, does the choc carry yellow gene and the yellow carry choc gene?
Thirdly, if you plan to still put these 2 together, and the bitch is not very keen, have you had her blood tested to check that she is ready for mating, most bitches are not "Text Book" ready on day 12
How experienced is the male dog? has he had many bitches? and are you assisting them in any way or just leaving them to get on with it?
And just to add, this was written by Di Stevens and makes VERY interesting reading
"Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance
Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:
1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.
What do you do?
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown
What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.
2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!
3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.
4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....
5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.
6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.
7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.
Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!
9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.
10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.
Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.
So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.
....Cos it isn't "
(copied and pasted cos I like getting lab points )
Thanks Denise... and yes agree this mating shouldn't be taking place on so many grounds.
However to the OP, I shall not jusdge your actions, I'm sure to YOU you have a male, you have a female, lets have puppies! Its just that there SHOULD be a lot more to it than that.
Ok, so if you sure you want pups from your bitch, firstly why not use an experienced breeder for stud. Any why use a chocolate? Are you aware that all your pups will almost certainly be black? They will not be yellow and chocolate as genetics do not work like that except in very exceptional colour background circumstances. I can explain that further if you think I must be talking rubbish
Ok, now this is a classic - should one on this forum assist this mating, or not help so that you don't get the dogs mated? I am one for saying I would rather your bitch had an easy time of it as I expect you will mate them anyway - grin.
Ok, to mate your bitch you MUST have made a firm mental note of the first day of her season. If you didn't you are absolutely unethical to keep throwing the dog at the bitch and her having to defend herself from him.
You should not even consider attempting a mating until around day 11 generally, unless you have blood tested your bitch (there is a premate blood test you can use to find out when she is ovulating and therefore when you should mate her) and she has come back an 'early mater'.
So think on that for a start, if you are just picking any old day you will upset both and not get a mating and at some point your bitch could be injured from repeatedly having a heavy dog on her back when she is not ready. The dog can be injured from the bitch deciding enough is enough and REALLY biting him.
SO, did you make a note of day one? What day is she now? Has she been bleeding at LEAST 11 days? If not there is your problem immediately.
Then most pet bitches are NOT easy to mate. Even when ready, you WILL need to assist your dog and hold your bitch, but the thought makes me curl my toes if you are forcing and holding at the wrong time of her season.
I REALLY would call a vet and have her premate bloodtested and use those results. THEN I would find a breeder in your area willing to help you. Its impossible to solve this one by email.
Best
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
First off, I will readily admit that I am not experienced when it comes to breeding dogs. Yes these two dogs are our pets, and we thought these dogs would make great puppies. We are not looking to sell them or profit from them, like I said, our two dogs are such great dogs that i think their puppies would make someone a nice pet. Perhaps naive thinking.
We have setup appointments with our vet to get her tested to make sure she is healthy and to pin down her exact cycle.
I know we are a tough bunch Sorry in some ways but it does make people think a bit. I hope its just that, tough and caring, not rude.
The idea of healthchecks is to use your AKC to hip assess and eye check BOTH parents as these nasty problems are genetic so can be handed down from either parent. A healthy dog 'to the naked eye' can very much not be 'under the skin'.
So you own both potential parents you will need to healthcheck both. Its not about being posh or making more money from the pups (although healthy puppies go for more money of course) and the scoring proceedure will take anything up to 2 months to complete even though it is only two simple checks.
So you will have to shelve plans this season, which might make you decide NOT to health check because you want to do it THIS one, but your bitch has time, and better to do it right.
Ask your vet about OFA hip checking, and also AKC eye testing. Your vet can take the xrays needed for the hips. Its very simple and just a few minutes under a very light GA to have the shots taken.
Then you can at least know the parents you are using, are healthy and will almost certainly have a much better chance of producing healthy puppies for those pet homes you have lined up for them.
Did you take on board that the pups produced from your dogs will almost certainly be black? Not chocolate and yellow? It depends on the colour of your dogs parents and what they have inherited BUT to have yellow and chocolate puppies your chocolate would need to carry the gene for yellow AND your yellow would need to carry the gene for chocolate.
You know that there is quite a high mortality rate in breeding dogs? You have the potential chance of losing your bitch during a difficult whelping. Also around 1.4 of labrador whelpings end in a C-Section costing around $1000 APPROX plus aftercare. Pups also die and you need to be very hands on during the whelping, cutting cords, breaking sacks, and if she is not a natural mother, handfeeding the pups every 2 hours 24 hours a day for the first 3 weeks of their life....?
Its a gut-ful to say that all in one paragraph but as a breeder and one mixing in circles where most breed at some point with their proven competitions dogs, I know many who have had to handraise, and lost their bitch during whelping or even after mating because of a huge infections from mishandling the mating and introducing germs in....
I hope you have a little rethink, maybe health check your girl, and use the time between now and her next season to find an experienced breeder and quality dog to take her to who will mentor you through the mating, whelping and rearing of your litter as part of the stud service she or he provides.
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
Not a case of being tough, just being honest if you have not had their eyes tested and hips scored then you shouldn't breed from her this time round as it will take time for the results to come through, best get the checks done now and if you are serious about mating the 2 then mate them next time if they both pass their hips and eyes at least...
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