Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: Yellow + Choc - Am I going Mad?
Hi,
I may open a can of worms but it is not intentional. I have found NUMEROUS websites today (Some are good kennels) saying NEVER mate a choc to a yellow, as the coat colour will be faded and the pigment will be wrong etc, etc. Am I going mad - but if you mate a pure yellow to a pure choc - surely the pups are ALL going to be BLACK carrying yellow and choc. Is this right?
Is isn't hard to work out if the yellow carries choc or the choc carries yellow from the pedigree or DNA testing. I am just having a small rant about 'top' kennels giving out misleading info! Maybe a course in coat colour inheritance should be available! Apologies if I am wrong.
A choc mated to any colour which does not contain the choc gene cannot produce choc.
A yellow mated to any colour which does not contain yellow cannot produce yellow.
But a yellow can carry the choc gene and a choc can carry the yellow gene.
So, depending on what recessive genes the dogs carry, could produce, all chocolate, all black, a mix of choc and yellow or a mix of black, choc and yellow.
I know what you're saying, Tracey, but some kennels are firmly rooted to their beliefs and will not change their ideas unless they see it for themselves, but as they are so scared of the combination they'll never try it. Particularly older breeders view this cross as a no-no, and so never have done it and still believe it cannot be done; it's almost the same as the belief about putting black into chocolate pedigrees to keep the colour and eyes dark. You and I know it isn't true about that, but the belief is embedded in some places.
There is a thread just down the breeding listing called 'pup from choc x yellow mating' or something where I lay out my own view on this load of old tosh that yellow x chocolate is a *terrible terrible* thing. The drama of mating thus dogs has been escalated to the idea that all the pups will be deformed, non pigmeneted silver chocolate mutants.
The is absolutely not true.
There are plenty of dark or mid chocolates born with correct pigment with yellow behind them or even TO yellows.
Its just not done very often so few people know about it other than the fairytales.
Di
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The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
I just see yell + choc matings as - if you are breeding to the breed standard you wouldnt knowingly do it as dudley pigment isnt the standard, but it is fine to have one as a pet from a mating where the outcome wasnt known and the pup wont be bred from.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Coat Type
There are a good few pages on coat type and production of colours in I think Chris Jurys Book (will check - my memory is terrible) if not its probably in one of MRW books.
I dont think it is a terrible thing for yellow x chocolate or any other combination as long as the parents are good specimens (all round). To prove the theory regarding lightening of pigmentation and coat coour depth ect you would need to continually breed yellow to choc or choc to choc with any black introduced for several generations and no one would do that.
The KC has recently said it WILL NO LONGER register any offspring from Yellow to Yellow other than Yellow (yes they used to). Other coat combinations are more difficult for the KC at present to dispute or to say this is right or wrong whether for health or other reasons.
I am rambling on, really suffice to say again it should be the all round best dog used rather than get stuck on colour (this is only me though...... )
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: Coat Colour
Just remembered (see told you my memory was rubbish). There is an interesting lab website which looks at colour and keeps it to 'families' an interesting read.
Also its important to note that the majority of choco x yellow matings result in black only puppies because both parents have to carry the others colour (the yellow carry chocolate and the chocolate carry yellow) to HAVE anything other than black anyway.... so the pigment issue doesn't even arise then.
So its a tiny minority who would end up with incorrect pigment. And quite framnkly I have seen incorrect pigment for varying reasons on pups from ALL colour combinations through the quirk of fate.
Can I say here once and for all:
LIGHT CHOCOLATE OR LIGHT EYES OR LIGHT ANYTHING DOES NOT COME FROM YELLOW X CHOCOLATE.
It is not a mixing palete here. You know, throw a bit of black in and it darkens things up. It ENTIRELY depends on the colour gene recessive for SHADE of coat colour that dog carries. A yellow if they carried chocolate could well carry the DARK shade gene... its nothing to do with them being yellow so the shade of chocolate they throw MUST, therefore, be a LIGHT one.
Think on it - endless matings of blacks and yellows occur but do they start to say that the resulting pups will be light in eye and coat shade? No.... so its an old wives tale for chocolates and yellows too.
Take a look for a start at Warringah. They run quite a light chocolate shade in their kennel, and win with it, and it is many many generations of black x chocolate without a yellow in sight!
Di
____________
The boys!
Read: Wylanbriar Dog Blog on the website: Updated! 1st February 12´!
The KC has recently said it WILL NO LONGER register any offspring from Yellow to Yellow other than Yellow (yes they used to). Other coat combinations are more difficult for the KC at present to dispute or to say this is right or wrong whether for health or other reasons.
Isn't it just so ridiculous if the above is true, that they can do this, for whatever reason they feel is best, yet they carry on registering pups from un hip/elbow scored Labradors..........or even those with outrageous scores.................what is the world coming to
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Yellow + Choc - Am I going Mad?
Hi,
Di has hit my point right on the head, as I thought - pure choc to pure yellow results in BLACK puppies, so NO pigment problems. Surely this would be useful to use pure yellows, as it would widen the already small chocolate gene pool. I know there are plenty of good black dogs carrying choc, but imagine what could be produced in a few generations using good pure yellows to good pure chocs.
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